King-sized Disagreement

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sqj10942h63da10863c&s=sk8hkqj105dk5caj104]133|200|Scoring: IMP

S W N E

1♥ P 1♠ P

2♣ X 2♠ p

2N P 3♦ P

3♠ P P P[/hv]

 

 

I'm not claiming to be right or wrong, as with many sequences there is room for disagreements, but this seemed to me a preventable disaster more so with the 6/5 hand than with the opening hand.

 

My views are these: 2N expressed the extra values. Partner's 3D is a delicate probe of some sort, most likely in this auction to be a weakish 6/4, 6/5 or 5/5 with some doubt. 3S showed an interest in a suit contract without ruling out 3N if partner held some hand like: AQxxxx, x, Q10xx, xx but allowing a pass if he held something like: AJ10xx, x, Q10xxx, xx. IMO, with no doubt about the spade quality and length, partner missed 2 chances to bid game: directly over 2N (we go out of our way not to bid NT with singletons) or at the very least over 3S.

 

Partner's views: 2N may only be looking to improve the contract. (later rethought and altered to extras but not necessarily great extras). 3D pinpointed the problem he thought he had with his hand, the losing diamond cards, and therefore the correct bid over 3D was 4S.

 

It seems that partner's approach places a higher priority on stopping short of game on those few times it is wrong than on bidding games when there appears to be a reasonable play, whereas my approach is to bid the best-seeming game contract and only stop when the cards tell us we have to do so.

 

Views?

[Guest Jlall]

Your partner is smoking crack.

 

2N is never improving the contract, it shows at the very least a good 16. North has an easyyyy 4S over that (yes 2N could be 1534 but QJT9xx is a fine trump suit anyways). Presumably 3D was trying to find out if partner had a stiff or a doubleton. 3S confirmed a doubleton, and north STILL wouldnt bid game. 6-5 come alive or something.

[mike777]

Glad Justin was forceful with his reply.

 

Btw for those of us too young do you smoke or sniff or what with Crack? I find all these drug choices very confusing. :D

 

I must admit I do see many people on BBO play 2nt as a nothing hand rebid just trying to improve contract bid I guess.

 

Btw Winston did you think partner promises 6 spades for his bid looking at your hand? I did not see what your thinking was.

 

Justin's may very well be the expert approach. Here is my thinking.

1) I would have blasted to 4s over 2S.

2) I would have blasted to 4s over 2NT.

3) I would have blasted to 4S over 3D.

4) I would have bid 4S over your 3S bid at the table.

5) I could understand 3S over 2S. I then bid 4s over 3S.

 

For what it is worth my approach is to just bid the darn game at imps. I try and bid my hands in some kind of normal fashion.

 

I am concerned in most partnerships taking the delicate, scientific approach many times will confuse me or partner and end up as in your example.

 

In any event great hand for you and your partner to agree on next time and perhaps agree on some general philosophy as it seems you have two unique approaches that conflict.

[Winstonm]

Mike777 Justin's may very well be the expert approach. Here is my thinking.

1) I would have blasted to 4s over 2S.

2) I would have blasted to 4s over 2NT.

3) I would have blasted to 4S over 3D

 

Maybe you should be playing with my partner. :D

 

I think 2S implies but does not promise a 6 card suit. With distributional values, a hand such as AQJxx, xx, Qxxxx, x may well want to get his suit rebid - the key issue on the hand was the quality of the spade suit, IMO. J98xxx, x, AQxxx, xx may well want to bid 2S as well as for all he knows this is a competetive auction only and he might as well show his stuff now rather than later.

 

With KQ of spades, I would blast as you suggest.

 

Winston

[arrows]

From North point of view, Game value should be confirmed after 2NT,

he should not pass 3 spades.

[ArcLight]

I have a fundamental question:

 

Opener makes a suit bid of 1, responder bids a different suit.

Opener makes a bid of a different suit, responder rebids his suit.

 

What do you expect responder to have?

 

 

Would responder rebid his suit with just 5 cards?

If so, is it a good 5 card suit, or J9764.

 

What is pard telling you with the rebid, are you getting any negative inferences, beyond the obvious "I dont have support for you". With a bad 5 card suit, is it worth it for responder to rebid his suit?

[Kalvan14]

2♠ should never be a (good) 5-card suit in this particular auction (the double gives advancer more space).

 

2N can never be just a try to improve contract, but shows more or less the hand posted.

 

I would put at least 90% of the blame with the advancer. The remaining 10% is because over 3♦ opener should bid 4♠.

 

Strange hand, it looks like everyone is trying to stay out of game at any cost.

[Winstonm]

I have a fundamental question:

 

Opener makes a suit bid of 1, responder bids a different suit.

Opener makes a bid of a different suit, responder rebids his suit.

 

What do you expect responder to have?

 

 

Would responder rebid his suit with just 5 cards?

If so, is it a good 5 card suit, or J9764.

 

What is pard telling you with the rebid, are you getting any negative inferences, beyond the obvious "I dont have support for you".  With a bad 5 card suit, is it worth it for responder to rebid his suit?

There is not much else responder can do holding: Q10xxxx, x, xx, KJxx over 1H-1S-2D.

 

What would you do with AQ10xx, x, xx, Kxxxx or this horror: Jxxxx, x, xx, KQxxx in the same auction?

 

Now add this free bid element - partner does not have to bid over the double, and you are left with hands like: Q10xxxx, x, xx, AQxx or AQ10xx, x, xx, QJxxx as kind of minimum-ish types. With a 5-card suit the suit and the hand tend to be better and a 6 card suit doesn't have to be totally robust. These bids are not run-outs from 2C but informative bids - a reason to bid.

 

Anyway, that is my opinion though others may differ.

 

Winston

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2NT is certainly not a "improve" the contract bid,

and 2NT should show a doubleton, i.e. 2Nt should

never be bid with a singleton / void.

While over 2NT partner could have bid 4S,

opener is also not free of blame.

2S showed 6 card suit, 3 D says, that openers kings

in spade and diamond fit nicely, i.e. opener could

bid 4S by himself, i.e. each one owns the other a

beer.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

What would you do with AQ10xx, x, xx, Kxxxx or this horror: Jxxxx, x, xx, KQxxx in the same auction?

2H, what else.

 

Do you really want to play 2S opposite

an opener with 5-5-2-1 or 6-4-2-1?

 

Accept your fait.

 

The double changes the whole thing a bit,

since the dbl is for blood, but then with

5-4 in spades and diamond, what speaks

against 2D?

 

Marlowe

[Winstonm]

2♠ should never be a (good) 5-card suit in this particular auction (the double gives advancer more space).

 

2N can never be just a try to improve contract, but shows more or less the hand posted.

 

I would put at least 90% of the blame with the advancer. The remaining 10% is because over 3♦ opener should bid 4♠.

 

Strange hand, it looks like everyone is trying to stay out of game at any cost.

Do you play that 2D here then is natural and invitational? What is redouble? Is 2D some form of modified 4th suit?

 

Although I agree that 4S is a call South can make, the other question is should 3S be passable or an effort to find the best contract? Give North some holding like:

 

J108xxx, 9x, x, AQJx and 3N looks better to me.

 

Winston

[han]

You bid it very well Winston. As for your partner... enough has been said.

[Winstonm]

What would you do with AQ10xx, x, xx, Kxxxx or this horror: Jxxxx, x, xx, KQxxx in the same auction?

2H, what else.

 

Do you really want to play 2S opposite

an opener with 5-5-2-1 or 6-4-2-1?

 

Accept your fait.

 

The double changes the whole thing a bit,

since the dbl is for blood, but then with

5-4 in spades and diamond, what speaks

against 2D?

 

Marlowe

I certainly agree that with the weaker hand you are trying to escape judgment day and I might even pass 2D instead. But the stronger hand needs to keep the bidding alive in case partner's 2C is a 16-17 count. 2S to me in this sequence is somewhat encouraging with either a 6 card suit or a decent 5 - I can't bring myself to bid 2N on AQxxx, x, xx, Kxxxx.

 

Also, this was kind of an "off-the-wall" auction as how many times a year do you get doubled for penalties in opener's second suit? Does anyone have clear-cut agreements here? Does fourth suit say ignore the double, we're going to game anyway? What does redouble mean? Pass? Bids. Not clear cut for many of us I don't think. Certainly wasn't clear cut for us. :)

 

Winston

[Chamaco]

I think 2S implies but does not promise a 6 card suit.  With distributional values, a hand such as AQJxx, xx, Qxxxx, x may well want to get his suit rebid

 

Nah, it's a 2S free bid after opps double.

After opps double I'd just pass with AQJxx, xx, Qxxxx, x; pard has stil the chance to keep the bidding alive.

 

IMO, a free bid of 2S should be a 6 card suit here: of course pard is allowed to bid it with an semisolid 5 bagger (e.g. KQJTx or so), but opener will always be playing him for a 6 bagger (and should not plan the bidding to cater for the possibility that it was only a 5 bagger).

 

However, I agree with Mike's post: both players have shown non minimum values (yes, 2NT shows extras) , 4S could have ben bid from both sides

[Fluffy]

The bidding is more rational that it seems to you, 2NT is wrong because you have ♠ fit, and 3♠ looks better, 3♦ sing off was a bit of underbid, but then we might be under huge missfit. 3♠ was consistent with previous bid.

 

The disagreement is IMO that the strong hand though 2♠ could be 5 cards, while the other assumed it showed 6. I think it should show 6, having 5 only marginally (5/5).

[Guest Jlall]

Nah, it's a 2S free bid after opps double.

After opps double I'd just pass with AQJxx, xx, Qxxxx, x; pard has stil the chance to keep the bidding alive.

Wouldn't pass suggest playing 2C X? I don't think partner will bid with a normal hand, so I think 2S is just correcting the partscore out of 2C Xed.

[mikeh]

I don't have much problem with S's auction.

 

S could have bid 3♠ over 2♠: but 2N conveyed the same strength.

 

N could have tried 4♠ over 2N, imho, 3♦ was dangerous: had S been 1=5=3=4, might not 3♦ end the auction? I'd prefer 4♠, but if 3♦ was forcing one round, it is not horrible.

 

3♠ seems clear: bidding 4 at this point seems inconsistent with 2N

 

Pass of 3♠ has to be wrong.

 

So in terms of fault, I'd assess 80-20: S gets 20% for not raising 2♠, but I may be being unfair to S here.

[Kalvan14]

2♠ over 2♣X is not exactly a statement of strength: N does not care to play 2♣X, and is retreating to 2♠. This maybe the original misunderstanding: still, I do believe that 2N should be clear enough.

[Winstonm]

Question to everyone: how would you take an immediate 2D by North after the double?

 

Winston

[mike777]

Question to everyone:  how would you take an immediate 2D by North after the double?

 

Winston

F1 with 5 spades.

 

In any event I am more worried about slam...game force 100% with my huge hand.

[Chamaco]

Nah, it's a 2S free bid after opps double.

After opps double I'd just pass with AQJxx, xx, Qxxxx, x; pard has stil the chance to keep the bidding alive.

Wouldn't pass suggest playing 2C X? I don't think partner will bid with a normal hand, so I think 2S is just correcting the partscore out of 2C Xed.

 

I do not like to rebid a normal 5 card suit as a runout, in the given 5-2-5-1 hand there is no guarantee that the spade will play better than clubs, given the bidding.

 

I think that either pass or redouble should show the willingness to play the contract in clubs, the other one as "no tolerance, pard".

 

Indeed, I can't tell what is best or "standard" treatment.. :) .

 

In the given hand, 5-2-5-1, if pass is out, rather than rebidding spades I'd much prefer to bid diamonds to suggest another place to play, which we can sort out at the 2-level - unless the partnership has agreed that this shows a better hand (which I don't think it should).

[Kalvan14]

with a weak 5-2-5-1, the best re-bid is likely to be 2♥. If the hand were 5-1-5-2, I would not like to play 2♣X anyway. I would bid 2♦ (which is forcing, usually shows 5 spades, but can also be something like 4-1-6-2 or even 4-1-7-1: advancer would show this by rebidding 3♦). Which means that 2♠ certainly shows 6 cards. Maybe - with the given hand - it would be better to bid 2♦: the hands is not so bad, and spades are pretty good, after all.