Playing in a 4-3 fit

[Wackojack]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sj1074h1087d54ca862&s=s96hakj3dkqck10753]133|200|Scoring: MP

Bidding

p-1C-p-1S

p-2H-p-p

p[/hv]

 

Do you like the bidding?

Do you like the contract compared with 3♣ or 1NT?

As declarer in 2♥, after lead of 3♦ to Ace and another to your king, would you:

1. Play J♥?

2. Low heart?

3. Club to Ace the run 10♥?

4. Club to Ace then heart to Jack?

5. Anything else?

[Fluffy]

The bidding is awful unless you play very limited openings.

 

there are 2 lines:the safest is ♥AK, then ♣s.

 

The one a bit riskier is ♥A, ♣A and low ♥ wich can make many tricks

[Wackojack]

"there are 2 lines:the safest is ♥AK, then ♣s".

 

If hearts are 4-2 and clubs 3-1 (not that unusual) then the defence ruffs the 3rd club and plays the queen of hearts to remove dummy's last trump and then a diamond. Down 2!

[luke warm]

first of all, i think i'd be in 1nt after 1c : 1d : 1nt pass... now i'd lead a heart to the 10

[PMetsch]

I would have opened 1NT (playing a strong NT) or rebid 1NT (playing a weak NT). I would rather play 3♣, but 3♥ is not hopeless. People who play 3♣ make either +110 or +130 depending on the ♣ break and ♥ finesse. People who play 1NT will make +120 if they can pick up the ♣suit. So I think I need to make 3♥ to have a reasonable score. I would play a ♣ to the ace and a ♥ to the jack.

[pclayton]

Its early but I'll try:

 

I don't care for the bidding unless, as Gonzalo says, you play a limited opening so that a reverse can be passed. I play this way but most don't.

 

My guess is that most table will either open 1N. If the opponents didn't overcall 1♦ over 1♣, they probably won't compete over 1N either. NT plays awkward on a diamond lead. If clubs are 2-2 (or singelton picture in west), scoring +120 looks likely. If clubs are not breaking, the 1N contracts will score poorly, although it still comes home if hearts are 3-3 and the Q on.

 

Should those in 1N be happy with +90 and gamble the heart hook for +150 or +180? A good player in 1N will see (assuming clubs break) that those playing the likely club contract will score either +110 or +130, since the heart finesse is a freebie. So its really a toss-up. If the heart hook is on, its right to take it and get +150 / +180 beating +130 but if its off then its right to cash out (+120 beating +110).

 

Getting 2♥ might be more common than you think however. I can see a garbage stayman auction of 1N - 2♣ - 2♥.

 

If I had to guess, in a large national field you would have 50% in 3♣, 30% in 2♥ and 10% in 1N. The other contracts the field will either be too high, or defending a ♦ contract (which doesn't look too bad) or a ♠'s (which does). Don't worry about the 'tails' here.

 

However I think most tables will play in 3♣ after 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 2N (Lebensohl) - 3♣ - AP, so I think we should focus on the aspects of the heart versus club contracts.

 

I don't see a lot of reason to try to over-safety this hand and play hearts sub-optimally and duck a trick out of my hand. Its sort of an illusion since it may lead to more complications if the heart hook is on. Say it goes diamond lead, diamond to king, heart ducked from hand. If RHO wins, assume 2 spades are cashed and they give you a ruff/sluff and you pitch a club and take the tap in dummy. Do you then try clubs? Say you continue club, club (they don't ruff) and a club. Now the 4th diamond and things are looking grim.

 

So I will play a club up and a heart to my Jack. If it wins I'm in great shape. K♣ (say it gets ruffed), 2 spades and a diamond. Take the tap in dummy, lose the club, etc.. If clubs are 2-2, then AK♥ and I will make 9 or 10 tricks.

 

However, this line ends up in +110 when the heart finesse is on and clubs are 3-1, so I will only tie those in clubs also making +110.

 

If I guess to bang down the ♥AK after the heart finesse wins and the hearts break, then I can score +140 and beat those making +130. SO, actually playing the AK♥ looks indicated if the heart hook wins.

 

If the heart hook loses, I am playing to beat +110 / -50 in clubs. Since I am playing against robots, they cash their 2 spades and give me a ruff/sluff. I take the tap in dummy and am at the crossroads. If clubs are 3-1, 3♣ is -1. If clubs are 3-1 and hearts are 4-2 with the Q off, can I still make 2♥? No, but I can tie those in clubs by leaving hearts alone and playing on clubs, losing 2 spades, 2 hearts, a diamond and a club. If hearts are 3-3, I can take the tap in dummy draw trump and give up a club for 8 tricks, however this line risks more than -1 if the long trump lies with the 3rd club, but thats unlikely.

 

So, overall, I would play on general matchpoint principles and try to maximize my contract with A♣, heart to Jack. There are many permuations on whether it wins or loses and its a complicated hand.

 

Note: I wouldn't analyze a hand like this at the table because of time constraints, but I would go over some of the basic assumptions about the other contracts, but I might not reach the same conclusions. If I was playing in a one-board playoff for a BAM, then I might.

[Winstonm]

I'd like to have more of my hand in the doubletons to open 1N, more like the AQ of spades and the Kx of diamonds and weaker hearts. This hand is too suit-oriented for my taste.

 

Without good consolidation, I see no reason to fudge and reverse the hand...if I did fudge some it would look more like: x, AK10x, xx, AKJxxx.

 

Hand in question I rebid 2C - this is not necessarily a weak bid - it is nebulous and could be anything from xx, KJxx, Kx, AJxxx to xx, AQxx, Kx, AJ9xxx which to me is just short (barely) of a jump to 3C.

 

Bidding I don't care for: I play the reverse as a 1-round force so passing is not allowed - even with this dog of a response game is not out of the question so pass is not a possibility.

 

The play can in 2H can be complex - most straightforward is to attack clubs right away with low to the ace and finesse if honor appears on the left else play for the 22. Plan is to lose 2H, 2S and a diamond without losing control. Making 2H will tie 3C 1/2 the time - when the heart queen is offside. Say on a 12 top, 3C making is problably worth 7 1/2, so tying is worth 7 and making +110 the other times is probably worth 3 to 4. Going down rates to be 0 to 1 1/2. If matchpoints, I'd have to put my faith in my bidding and find the safest line to 8 tricks.

 

 

Winston

[mike777]

Open 1NT

 

Expect partner to pass and not bid Garbage Stayman.

 

Typical problem hand with 2=4=2=5 and not good enough to reverse. Really do not like to reverse on this hand but must admit many on BBO disagree with me strongly.

[Wackojack]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sj1074h1087d54ca862&w=saq8h95dj8732cqj9&e=sk532hq642da1096c4&s=s96hakj3dkqck10753]399|300|Scoring: MP

This was the full deal Contract 2♥[/hv]

 

At the table it was me that passed partner's forcing bid. (A first for me) :) I am still not sure that this was all bad with these cards at MP. We play 1♣ normally max <8 playing tricks (clubs trumps) or 19HCP. Possibly more with small singleton major no good suit.

 

After Ace and another diamond by defence. Partner played small to 10H and duly went down when clubs split 3-1 and hearts 4-2. (Actually could have made with defence playing a third spade instead of next a diamond)

 

I am not good at double dummy solutions but it seems to me that if the finesse in hearts is successful you can make 2♥ with hearts 4-2 and clubs 3-1. OTOH you go down with hearts 3-3 and clubs 3-1 if the heart finesse fails. So it looks to me the odds with safety favour the finesse over playing first a heart rather than a club. For me a complex problem so I appreciate the inputs especially your observation that defence should give ruff/sluff in diamonds after cashing 2 spades.

 

Incidentally this was a local club duplicate in weak no trump Acol land with mixed abilities. Any plus score would have been good as would be expected with a par to NS =-100. +110 scored 16 out of 20, -110 8 out of 20.

[inquiry]

Hand posted before I got to this thread, so I will just say a word about the bidding. No, I don't like it when partner passes a forcing bid, so I dislike the bidding.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi

 

No, I dont like the bidding, passing a forcing bid has

to be right.

I prefer playing a 5-4 to a 4-3 fit.

 

My dummy play is not masterly, and I need to

spare my moments of glory.

 

I would follow the standard plan, i.e. play two rounds

of trump and after that try to set up the clubs,

 

The point is, first you need to go plus, since it is not 100% certain,

that they will make 10 tricks playing clubs, but they will

make 3C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sj1074h1087d54ca862&w=saq8h95dj8732cqj9&e=sk532hq642da1096c4&s=s96hakj3dkqck10753]399|300|Scoring: MP

This was the full deal Contract 2♥[/hv]

 

At the table it was me that passed partner's forcing bid.  (A first for me) :rolleyes:  I am still not sure that this was all bad with these cards at MP.  We play 1♣ normally max <8 playing tricks (clubs trumps) or 19HCP.  Possibly more with small singleton major no good suit.

 

After Ace and another diamond by defence.  Partner played small to 10H and duly went down when clubs split 3-1 and hearts 4-2.  (Actually could have made with defence playing a third spade instead of next a diamond) 

 

I am not good at double dummy solutions but it seems to me that if the finesse in hearts is successful you can make 2♥ with hearts 4-2 and clubs 3-1.  OTOH you go down with hearts 3-3 and clubs 3-1 if the heart finesse fails.  So it looks to me the odds with safety favour the finesse over playing first a heart rather than a club.  For me a complex problem so I appreciate the inputs especially your observation that defence should give ruff/sluff in diamonds after cashing 2 spades.

 

Incidentally this was a local club duplicate in weak no trump Acol land with mixed abilities.  Any plus score would have been good as would be expected with a par to NS =-100.  +110 scored 16 out of 20, -110 8 out of 20.

I find a more interesting question is does anyone overcall one club with 1D by West? That gets you to 2D or 3D, geez doesn't anyone compete in Acol land? :)

 

Hate the pass of 2H, I got an ace!

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

Passing a forcing bid might win on any given hand, however, it will lose on too many others because partner will no longer 'trust you.' Better to honor the 'force' than lose partner's trust.

 

I do play a forcing club system, however, I still define my reverses as forcing

for one round.

 

I do not reverse with 'just' 4-5 shape, since I cannot have the HCP for the bid.

I can have ten+ cards in the two suits and want to show the extreme shape.

 

Some systems(POWER) use special gadjets to allow a 4H/5+ club hand to show the distribution and allow a pass. I also have a number of 'tools' gadjets to show various limited but 'shapely' hand types.

 

If I were playing standard methods this hand does not have the values to 'reverse.'

 

I would open a 15-17HCP NT as a possible solution. Playing 12-14 1NT openings, I would open 1C and rebid 1NT over 1S.

 

If you pass opposite x AKQJ Ax KQxxxx and your pass of the forcing 'reverse' misses a good slam. If that is too strong for your methods

x AKQx Ax KQxxxx

 

I have seen bad bidders jump to 3Hs with these kinds of hands, since they remember that partner passed their 'forcing' 2H bid. That is not the solution to the present problem.

 

Regards,

Robert

[inquiry]

I find a more interesting question is does anyone overcall one club with 1D by West? That gets you to 2D or 3D, geez doesn't anyone compete in Acol land? :rolleyes:

 

Hate the pass of 2H, I got an ace!

I would NOT bid 1♦ over 1♣ with the west hand, especially at matchpoints as I don't want to encourage partner to lead a diamond should we defend something. But at matchpoint, with the EAST hand and 4-4 in the unbid suits I would have competed over 1♥ or at least over the passed out reverse.

[Finch]

I hate the auction. I don't pass forcing bids unless I've psyched.

 

I'm happy with the reverse, and I'd end in 3C and take my +110 happily.

I've noticed from reading BW that Americans tend to need a little more than English players to reverse (which seems in tune with many of the responses here).

[mike777]

I hate the auction. I don't pass forcing bids unless I've psyched.

 

I'm happy with the reverse, and I'd end in 3C and take my +110 happily.

I've noticed from reading BW that Americans tend to need a little more than English players to reverse (which seems in tune with many of the responses here).

Ya and combine that with many Americans making a response on nothing.

[Wackojack]

Quote Robert "If that is too strong for your methods

x AKQx Ax KQxxxx"

OK pd would have opened 1C on that hand and I would have been ashamed of myself. Now I have broken partnership trust. :P btw I would take 1c-1s-3h as a splinter.

 

Quote FrancesHinden "I'm happy with the reverse, and I'd end in 3C and take my +110 happily"

Yes agreed, but what interests me is that 2H appears to be marginally safer than 3C and potentially higher scoring for MP.

 

Quote Robert "I would open a 15-17HCP NT as a possible solution. Playing 12-14 1NT openings, I would open 1C and rebid 1NT over 1S."

 

Since -110 was the most popular result my guess is a popular Acol land auction would be 1c-p-1nt-p; p-x-?-2d.... then possibly competing up to 3d. :D :D :o

[han]

The south hand is not a reverse imo, and the north hand is not a pass!

[Robert]

Hi Wackojack

 

We agree that a 3H bid is a splinter raise of spades. :)

 

You can gain by passing forcing bids on some hands. You can also lose by passing forcing bids on the same exact hands. You will, however, destroy partnership trust

by passing forcing bids. :(

 

If you are playing Acol you could open a 4 card major.

 

If the other pair bids up to 3Ds, you might be 'fixed.' :(

 

You play against people who double 1C-p-1NT-p-p with

 

AQx xx Jxxxx QJ9 ???

 

Do they like to play for money? Their heart support 'looks' a trifle 'thin' by my standards. :)

 

Regards,

Robert

[Winstonm]

I ran this hand through Deep Finesse, and it seems the only 3 cards south can play at trick 3 that lead to defeat are the J of hearts, the 3 of hearts, or the K of clubs. Any other line can lead to a make.

 

Winston

[Chamaco]

"there are 2 lines:the safest is ♥AK, then ♣s".

 

If hearts are 4-2 and clubs 3-1 (not that unusual) then the defence ruffs the 3rd club and plays the queen of hearts to remove dummy's last trump and then a diamond.  Down 2!

(4-2) = 48%

(3-1) = 64%

 

the combined probability of such combined layout is slightly less than 32%, quite reasonable IMO.

 

Also note that the risk of the second round of clubs being ruffed is non-existent when the ruffing hand is sitting *before* the high club honor, so he will be ruffing a club loser, which reduces even more the risk

 

However, it's MP, and it does give up the ovetrick, as Gonzalo suggested.

[Wackojack]

Quote Robert "If you are playing Acol you could open a 4 card major.

 

If the other pair bids up to 3Ds, you might be 'fixed.'

 

You play against people who double 1C-p-1NT-p-p with

 

AQx xx Jxxxx QJ9 ???

 

Do they like to play for money? Their heart support 'looks' a trifle 'thin' by my standards"

 

Hi Robert,

 

I am not trying to defend Acol or the players at my local club but just for the record:

 

Opening 1h is not Acol

 

Overcalling 1d or not with the west hand is a judgement decision not an Acol decision. Since -110 was a popular score I would bet that many would have overcalled 1d.

 

True- if the bidding goes 1c-1d-p-3d you have been out competed.

 

No, but I do play against people who might double with Kxxx, Qxxx, A10xx,x especial at green after 1c-p-1s-p, 1nt-p-p.

 

Yes we pay £1.50 for the privelage of playing.

 

Quote Winston "I ran this hand through Deep Finesse, and it seems the only 3 cards south can play at trick 3 that lead to defeat are the J of hearts, the 3 of hearts, or the K of clubs. Any other line can lead to a make"

 

Hi Winston,

 

Is this Deep Finesse solution double dummy as the cards lie, or the line most likely to succeed not knowing opps cards? I think we have worked out how to make double dummy. I was still uncertain whether going to the Ace of clubs and finessing was the best line with unknown opps cards.

[Robert]

Hi Wackojack

 

I open 1H playing Acol with a somewhat weaker hand than the example hand and my favorite Acol partner of many years(he is English) would also do so while playing a 12-14HCP 1NT(which we did also play)

 

Since it contains extra values you can rebid 1C-1S-1NT 15-16 or 1C-1D-1H

 

Our 'opinions' differ as to what is Acol 'if' you do not open 4 card majors when playing Acol. I learned Acol from a booklet published in England from a longtime well known English writer and player. The methods are several decades old, however, they open the bidding much like Goren methods in American bidding.

 

David did reverse a bit lighter than I did(my American background), however, he did often open four(repeat 4) card majors(as I did) and he would not have reversed holding this collection.

 

I recall that I used to comment that David only opened 1C holding less than four(4) cards in clubs only one time in the first three years that we played Acol on a regular basis. Playing a four card major system, we often opened a 4 card major when the hand was not worth a reverse bid. :lol:

 

You did 'not' say that the other pair would overcall 1D. You did write that the auction might go

1C-p-1NT-p-p-(X) holding AQx xx Jxxxx QJx which I looked at in horror. :)

 

Kxxx Qxxx A10xx x is an automatic balance and some(many?) would make a direct seat double of 1C. This is 'worlds removed' from balancing with a reopening double on 'your' suggested AQx xx Jxxxx QJx hand

 

I did not ask 'if' you paid an entry fee.

 

Do they bid like that(a balancing double on AQx xx Jxxxx QJX) and play rubber bid for coin of the realm? Cash money even? :)

 

Regards,

Robert

[Wackojack]

Quote"1C-p-1NT-p-p-(X) holding AQx xx Jxxxx QJx which I looked at in horror."

The balancing hand is Kxxx, Qxxx, AJxx,x which is as you say an automatic double. You have shown the opposite hand. :D

[Winstonm]

Wackojack:

 

Hi Winston,

 

Is this Deep Finesse solution double dummy as the cards lie, or the line most likely to succeed not knowing opps cards? I think we have worked out how to make double dummy. I was still uncertain whether going to the Ace of clubs and finessing was the best line with unknown opps cards.

 

This was just on this one layout and note that with a club to tha Ace at trick to it requires a heart lead at trick three and not a club continuation.

 

Winston