Free Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 You start picking up your cards, and you see more and more ♠. These are the NS hands:[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sxhakqxdakxxxckxx&s=sakqj987654hxdxxc]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]In a natural system this is easy if you have exclusion blackwood available. In relays however, you have to show your hand. Distributions with 8 cards or longer are normally excluded from the relayscheme, so you have to show them as another shape (example: 8320 as 7330). Extreme hands normally have to deal with intervention, so it's not a big problem... My partner started with 1♣ showing 15+HCP any distribution.I respond 1♥, showing GF with 4+♠.1♠ response from partner is relay.My 2♦ bid shows a singlesuiter with 6+♠. Now partner asks more information (exact shape) with a 2♥ bid, which gets me in big trouble!- I can hardly lie about 3 cards, since we might end up in the wrong contract (a 5-1 where partner thinks I have a 3 card), and if I lie, what distribution should I show? 7330, 7231?- I can't lie about my strength, since the slam methods will be a disaster later on- If I decide to show it as a 7330 (3NT bid), then partner is allowed to pass So I just bid 7♠, since partner probably has 0 or 1 ♠, he didn't reverse the relays so he's not minimum (or with 2-3 ♠s), and even if we miss an Ace we still have chance if opponents make a wrong lead. The full auction:1♣ - 1♥1♠ - 2♦2♥ - 7♠ Contract :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 What does 4C and upwards mean? Do these show 7330 with extra slam points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Hi everyone I have been exchanging messages with a Relay system builder. He has bids to show 'up to and including' specific 12=1=0=0 holdings. I assume that with 13 trumps he can duplicate your 7S call and his partner could pass or convert to 7NT holding 13 tricks in his own hand. The Ultimate Club relay method also uses bids to show 8 something and 9 something patterns. You might want to check out the details of that system's methods. I have not read my copy in a couple of decades so the exact bidding is a bit fuzzy. Your 7S bid was two to one odds with the example hand and Grand slams odds should be 70+%. If partner opened 1C without both Red Aces the odds would drop much further. I do not play relay methods, however, it is not uncommon to have 9 out of 10 bids in a slam auction be alerted. I play a lot of transfer type bids to attempt to make the big hand declare the final contract. My Big Club methods include a 1C-3D* to show 'solid' suits. I use relays to transfer the bidding back to opener to gain any lead advantage. Partner can 'often' guess my suit, unless he holds no honor in two suits.Partner would transfer me 'into' his suit 'if' I bid 1C-3D-3M and 'that' was not his long suit. 1C-3D*-4C* also asks for partner to transfer me into his 'suit.' I also use the 'higher bids' to show longer and 'longer' suits. Ten card suits does not begin to stretch the method. If you are going to play diamonds rather than NT with a 'solid' diamond suit it will often be at the 6/7 level. With your example hand, I would check to see if partner held a club and bid 6NT if partner did hold one or more clubs. If you had a club void, I would bid 7Ss. Regards, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 What does 4C and upwards mean? Do these show 7330 with extra slam points? 4♣ shows 7330 with 9 slam points, 4♦ a 7330 with 10 slam points,... So this is actually the exact problem I have. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 You start picking up your cards, and you see more and more ♠. These are the NS hands:[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sxhakqxdakxxxckxx&s=sakqj987654hxdxxc]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]In a natural system this is easy if you have exclusion blackwood available. In relays however, you have to show your hand. Distributions with 8 cards or longer are normally excluded from the relayscheme, so you have to show them as another shape (example: 8320 as 7330). Extreme hands normally have to deal with intervention, so it's not a big problem... My partner started with 1♣ showing 15+HCP any distribution.I respond 1♥, showing GF with 4+♠.1♠ response from partner is relay.My 2♦ bid shows a singlesuiter with 6+♠. Now partner asks more information (exact shape) with a 2♥ bid, which gets me in big trouble!- I can hardly lie about 3 cards, since we might end up in the wrong contract (a 5-1 where partner thinks I have a 3 card), and if I lie, what distribution should I show? 7330, 7231?- I can't lie about my strength, since the slam methods will be a disaster later on- If I decide to show it as a 7330 (3NT bid), then partner is allowed to pass So I just bid 7♠, since partner probably has 0 or 1 ♠, he didn't reverse the relays so he's not minimum (or with 2-3 ♠s), and even if we miss an Ace we still have chance if opponents make a wrong lead. The full auction:1♣ - 1♥1♠ - 2♦2♥ - 7♠ Contract :( Hi Free Your quite right that relay systems can encounter problems with extreme shape. Most of the relay systems designers that I know adopted a philosophy that extreme shapes don't need to resolved very frequently. The hand patterns are rare and (as you note) the opponents will typically intervene. Even when they don't, partner will often prefer to reverse the relay with a singleton or void in your suit... While its certainly possible to design a system that capable of showing specific 12=1=0=0 patterns, anyone who plays much relay will probably find a more efficient use for this bidding space. Modern MOSCITO would show your hand using a direct 3NT response to the 1♣ opening. Using older methods, I'd plan to show the hand as 7=2=3=1 pattern. Assume that partner has resolved shape and plans to terminate the the auction via 4♦. Your base slam points are 5, since you're shown at 10+ cards in your two longest suits. Accepting partner's signoff will show 5-8 slam points. Breaking by one step would show base + 4, breaking by two steps would show base +5, breaking by three steps is base + 6. In this example, base +6 would be 11 slam points opposite partner's strong club opening. I've typically played that base +8 indicates an extreme shape. Assume that partner trotted out 4♦ as the end signal. Extreme shapes would start to "crop up" starting with 5♦. This choice doesn't have much to do with the relative frequency 8+ cards suits compared to 12+ slam points following a strong club opening as it does with ease of use... If you bid 4♦ as end signal and partner bids 5♦+, its extreme. If you bid 3NT to sign off and partner bids 4NT+, he's showing extra shape. In this example, 5♦ would show and 8 card suit...5♥ would show a 9 card suit...5♠ would show a 10 card suit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 I had grabbed 10 cards in a suit twice, and I remember feeling happy when grabbing my cards 1 by 1, that was untill I checked the other 3 cards wich where from teh same suit and found it was a bug from the card dealer machine :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 in symmetric (gerben can correct this if it's wrong) it goes 1c : 1h1s : 2h (red suit reverser w/ 4 hearts)2s : 2nt (high shortage)3c : 3d (1453)3h : 4s (7 controls)4nt : 6d (skips the stiff, so this shows ♥A,K, ♦A,K therefore ♣K) 4nt=spiral scan... and now 7♠ but like you say, i'd never expect to have that unimpeded auction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 in symmetric (gerben can correct this if it's wrong) it goes 1c : 1h1s : 2h (red suit reverser w/ 4 hearts)2s : 2nt (high shortage)3c : 3d (1453)3h : 4s (7 controls)4nt : 6d (skips the stiff, so this shows ♥A,K, ♦A,K therefore ♣K) 4nt=spiral scan... and now 7♠ but like you say, i'd never expect to have that unimpeded auction The auction looks wrong Most symmetric relay systems contain contain reverse relay options in a few well defined circumstances. One of the "standard" reversal situations occurs during strong club auctions. Assume a strong club opening. Relay responder has promised game forcing values and shown a 4+ card suit. Playing "traditional" methods, this might occur in an auction like 1♣ - 1♥ (promising an unbalanced hand with 4+ Spades). Experience has shown that its very used for the strong club opener to be able to immediately show shortness (0-1 card support) for responder's known suit. This allows you avoid some bad slams. According, the strong club opener has the option to bid 1♠ and ask for shape. Alternatively, he can bid 1NT+, showing shape and explictly promising 0-1 card support for responder's suit. I don't know what resolution scheme Gerben uses, however, I suspect that the auction should start 1♣ - 1♥2♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Jimmy: Looks like you got the hands wrong: it's the NORTH hand who's dealer, not south... Richard: So after I show a 10 card suit, what's next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Jimmy: Looks like you got the hands wrong: it's the NORTH hand who's dealer, not south... well that would explain it, eh :D ... i was thinking south dealt, sorry.. if north dealt, relay has no way to resolve extreme shapes either, other than bidding the suit again once opener attempts to sign off... so maybe 1c : 1s1nt : 3s showing a 7(32)1 hand.. like you, i couldn't afford to bid 3nt showing a club void, in case p passes3nt : and now i'd have to bid 6s, i guess.. if i'd been able to show the club void he might go to 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 With such a hand, I'd rather bid 5♣ as some form of exclusion bw instead of 6♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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