ordinary problem

[Guest Jlall]

Playing imps you hold:

 

xx Qxxx JTx Axxx.

 

Pard opens 1S in fourth seat, you bid 1N, pard bids 2D, do you pass or bid 2S?

[hrothgar]

Where are you getting these problems?

 

I SO want to pull an Al Roth and claim "In all my years of bridge I've never faced a problem like this". But I can't even do that...

 

I'm going to pass...

 

I've seen a lot of 3rd/4th seat openings on four card suits.

Glad we're playing IMPs

[Guest Jlall]

I think if partner opened a 4 card major he would pass 1N knowing that bidding 2D will get him to a 4-2 very often. I can't even think of a shape where partner would want to bid over 1N with 4 spades. If he was 4441 1S would be weird as 1D (or 1H) keeps both majors in play, and he would probably want to pass 1N anyways with that shape. With 4 spades and 5 diamonds a 1S opener wouldn't make much sense, he could open 1D and rebid 1S with no problems at all. I don't think he has a subminimum "lead director" opener in 4th seat like he might in 3rd (in which case he'd be best off just passing 1N anyways before pard started inviting).

[han]

I was kibitzing this hand, it is real hrothgar :P.

 

2S seems better to me. If my partner opened 1S on a 4-card suit then they would pass 1NT, so I'm not worried about that. I also have some friendly cards, so if partner bids again over 2S with a good hand then that should not be a problem.

[Gerben42]

Seems that Justin attracts impossible problems. I think I'll pass.

[Winstonm]

Playing standard 2/1, do you have an option?: pard could be 5332. You can't risk playing the 3/3 fit with a known 5/2 or better is available. After all, that is one of the benefits of forcing nt: with 6142 and a strongish hand you can afford to bid 2D, knowing partner will prefer back to spades with 2 after which you can self raise.

[Gerben42]

pard could be 5332

Not opposite a passed hand.

[mike777]

Playing imps you hold:

 

xx Qxxx JTx Axxx.

 

Pard opens 1S in fourth seat, you bid 1N, pard bids 2D, do you pass or bid 2S?

2S seems clear, I must be missing something?

 

WinstonM, I assume 1nt forcing is off by a passed hand and partner would pass with almost all 5332 shapes. Even playing forcing NT is not 2 club rebid the standard rebid with that shape on just 2 clubs?

 

I suppose partner may rebid 2clubs with 14-16 hcp with 5=2=3=3 shape after a forcing nt bid.

 

 

In any event expect partner to now have full opener with 5 spades and 4 D.

[luis]

I bid 2♠

[awm]

Pass...

 

It's not real clear which will play better, 2♠ or 2♦. Partner could have 5-5 in the pointed suits, or 6-4 with six spades. If partner has the typical 5-4 shape, it will depend a lot on suit quality.

 

My concern is that partner will try to bid on over 2♠. I think my hand is bad enough that this will not work out well. This is not the 7-count that makes me want to be in 3NT opposite 17.

[hrothgar]

I think if partner opened a 4 card major he would pass 1N knowing that bidding 2D will get him to a 4-2 very often. I can't even think of a shape where partner would want to bid over 1N with 4 spades. If he was 4441 1S would be weird as 1D (or 1H) keeps both majors in play, and he would probably want to pass 1N anyways with that shape. With 4 spades and 5 diamonds a 1S opener wouldn't make much sense, he could open 1D and rebid 1S with no problems at all. I don't think he has a subminimum "lead director" opener in 4th seat like he might in 3rd (in which case he'd be best off just passing 1N anyways before pard started inviting).

I'd open 1♠ and rebid 2♦ with the following hand...

 

♠ KQT9

♥ 4

♦ T9842

♣ AKJ

 

I admit that this is probably far from the mainstream

[Al_U_Card]

You didn't specify if 1NT was forcing by a passed hand.....(I play that it is not) so the 4th chair has some good hand with 5 spades or a Pearson 15 count with good diamonds. Either way, he does NOT want to play in NT so I like the preference back to S as he could still have only 4D and bid that way....

[Guest Jlall]

no 1N is not forcing. I don't see how a passed hand could make a forcing 1N bid...even if by agreement it is it would always be free for opening bidder to pass knowing his pard is limited.

[Kalvan14]

2♠, wtp? I admit being swayed by the 2/1 approach

[luke warm]

frankly it wouldn't occur to me to do anything but bid 2♠ here, and i'd expect that bid to be better than pass by a very large margin, in the long run

[pclayton]

Pass.

 

With a 7 count, I'm not worried about missing game. With the appropriate hand, pard finds a jump shift or bids 2N. So, we are merely trying to land in the right partial.

 

A lot of the issue depends on pard's spade spots which are unknown. If pard has great texture, the 5-2 handles a little easier than the 4-3. But here, My J-10 diamonds look nice for ruffing the 3rd round of spades high.

 

Pard is typically 5-4, but could be 5-5. Its the good 6-4 that I worry about, but opposite a passed hand, I'm not sure partner should be monkeying around with a 2-step sequence either.

[HeartA]

Playing imps you hold:

 

xx Qxxx JTx Axxx.

 

Pard opens 1S in fourth seat, you bid 1N, pard bids 2D, do you pass or bid 2S?

2♠, non-brainer.

[mikeh]

I play 1N semi-forcing by a passed-hand, altho it took some persuasion to get me to do it. I have become a fan of it. I also play that 2♦ shows 4+, with 2♣ being highly suspect. Yes, I know about the problem hands for the method, but it solves other problems and I believe it to be worthwhile.

 

Anyway, if not forcing, then 2♦ is clearly at least 4. I pass: and await the normal trump lead with pleasure.

[Winstonm]

Playing imps you hold:

 

xx Qxxx JTx Axxx.

 

Pard opens 1S in fourth seat, you bid 1N, pard bids 2D, do you pass or bid 2S?

2S seems clear, I must be missing something?

 

WinstonM, I assume 1nt forcing is off by a passed hand and partner would pass with almost all 5332 shapes. Even playing forcing NT is not 2 club rebid the standard rebid with that shape on just 2 clubs?

 

I suppose partner may rebid 2clubs with 14-16 hcp with 5=2=3=3 shape after a forcing nt bid.

 

 

In any event expect partner to now have full opener with 5 spades and 4 D.

Sorry. I didn't notice the 4th hand position of opening bidder so obviously this is not forcing NT.

 

With this particular hand I would pass 2D for the reason that I don't want to encourage partner with a goodish hand to bid more. Two spades gives him that chance and I really don't want to play in 3S or much of anywhere higher than 2D.

 

Winston

[flytoox]

I vote for 2S. Pd's rebid in 4th seat must either show a good hand or shape. I think Pass is wrong in IMPs, perhaps wrong in MP too.

[adhoc3]

no 1N is not forcing. I don't see how a passed hand could make a forcing 1N bid...even if by agreement it is it would always be free for opening bidder to pass knowing his pard is limited.

 

In Mike Lawrence's book, Bidding Guidance After 2 Passes (I am not sure if it is the exact name in English), he pointed out that 1NT forcing off for a passed hand was wrong --- when 2/1 by a passed hand would not be GF. Given with Drury, forcing NT still work fine for a passed hand. A few expamples were given in this book:

 

1) 865 J4 Q1086 KJ97

 

Pass 1H

1NT 2C

2H

 

2) Q7 542 A10875 Q43 (this hand maybe wrong printed)

 

Pass 1S

1NT 2D

2S(!)

 

3) Q7 542 AQ1097 Q43

 

Pass 1S

1NT 2D

3D* encouraging

 

4) J7 J42 J8642 QJ3

 

Pass 1S

1NT 2D

Pass

 

5)AKJ 43 QJ96 9752

 

Pass 1H

1NT 2C

2NT

 

However, he noted, the opener should pass the forcing NT with balanced hand and less 14 hcps.

 

The posted hand is quite similar with 1). So back to S is Lawrence style.

[P_Marlowe]

2S

 

I believe in rules, and one rule is,

that I always bid partner 5 card suit.

 

On the ground, that 5-2 tends to play

better than 4-3.

 

Marlowe

[Guest Jlall]

However, he noted, the opener should pass the forcing NT with balanced hand and less 14 hcps.

Thus 1N is not forcing. Partner bids with an unbalanced hand, and passes with a weak NT, this is how people bid in SAYC. The idea of calling it "semi-forcing" because with 14 and 5332 opener will bid whereas in SAYC opener would pass seems silly, thats the only difference. I think that bidding doesn't work if we make "fourteen" it's own special category. A weak NT is a weak NT. If I have a 14 I will just pass 1N or upgrade the hand to a 1N opener initially. Bidding with a 5332 14 just in case partner happens to have a balanced 11 so that we can get to a slim game that may or may not make does not make sense to me, sometimes sh!t happens. I prefer to keep the integrity of the 2m bids. Even if I concede that it's "standard" to bid with a 5332 14 count that could not upgrade to a 1N opener, it is such an infrequent occurence when the bid is 2D that I'm willing to ignore it.

[adhoc3]

However, he noted, the opener should pass the forcing NT with balanced hand and less 14 hcps.

Thus 1N is not forcing. Partner bids with an unbalanced hand, and passes with a weak NT, this is how people bid in SAYC. The idea of calling it "semi-forcing" because with 14 and 5332 opener will bid whereas in SAYC opener would pass seems silly, thats the only difference. I think that bidding doesn't work if we make "fourteen" it's own special category. A weak NT is a weak NT. If I have a 14 I will just pass 1N or upgrade the hand to a 1N opener initially. Bidding with a 5332 14 just in case partner happens to have a balanced 11 so that we can get to a slim game that may or may not make does not make sense to me, sometimes sh!t happens. I prefer to keep the integrity of the 2m bids. Even if I concede that it's "standard" to bid with a 5332 14 count that could not upgrade to a 1N opener, it is such an infrequent occurence when the bid is 2D that I'm willing to ignore it.

Yes, a passed hand can't make 100% 'forcing NT bid', as part of his right of making judgement has been deprived by his initial pass. All the rebid form the opener is game oriental, in case PD could have 11 hcps (for which 14 hcp make sense as a threshold).

 

What Lawrence suggested are:

1) opener is to pass with 5332, 4333, 4432 and 14- hcp ('forced':P to pass by agreement);

2) opener is forced to bid with unbalance hand (any hcps) or 15+ hcp (any shape);

3) responder shall bid his forcing NT just like he never passed;

4) responder pass/raise opener's rebid, if it happen to be his 5 cards minor when weak/strong.

 

So for the case posted, using Lawrence's style, 2D could be 3 cards suit in a 14+ hand, back to S might be a must.

 

If the purpose of the post is to test the common style of responce to specific hand, 2S/2D seems to be equal. There're some other considerations out of discussion: what's the range of 4th seat 1NT? is there 4th seat intermmediate 2x opening? is it too cheap to buy the contract? ...etc.

 

I'll bid 2S anyway.

 

Regards,

 

Jack

[Finch]

2S is just the normal call.

It seems far too deep to me to pass 2D.

I'm not ashamed of my hand, not so much so that I want to pass as fast as possible.