Precision vs SAYC?

[Vilgan]

At our bridge club, it seems like there are 2 main styles of play. 1 is SAYC or pretty close. The other is precision. After playing pretty much SAYC (since its what I was taught), precision is starting to look pretty tempting. It seems to define points a lot more accurately than SAYC in less time. If I open 1♥, I instantly limited myself to a max of 15 points (from what I understand). I also really like the weak 1 NT style (it seems to make things a lot harder for opponents), and it seems to mesh well with precision.

 

But....... grass always seems greener on the other side. What are the disadvantages of precision?

 

Thanks for any pointers! :P

 

Eric

[awm]

Some disadvantages of precision:

 

The 1♦ opening is less defined distributionally than in sayc. This makes it harder to compete in diamonds, harder for partner to find the right lead when you end up defending, and harder to find the longer minor when opener rebids 2♣.

 

The 1♣ opening is subject to interference. When opponents preempt after the strong club opening (and assuming they actually have their bids) it is much harder to reach the right spot because less is known about opener's hand.

 

The 2♣ opening can cause you to miss a major suit fit when partner isn't strong enough to respond.

 

You lose the weak 2♦, which is often underestimated, as you pointed out in another thread.

 

The weak notrump is a two-sided weapon -- sometimes you miss a major suit fit or get doubled for a number, but you can also certainly steal from opponents in certain auctions.

 

There's more to remember in precision than in standard bidding, as there are more special sequences (responses to strong ♣, responses to 2♣ and 2♦, runouts after 1NT gets doubled).

 

-------------

 

On the other hand, precision also has many advantages. There are many players using a strong club at the highest levels of competition (Meckstroth-Rodwell and Weichsel-Sontag come to mind; Hamman-Soloway also play strong club but it's not as close a precision-derivative as the others).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

People who play precision sometimes forget,

that they also need to learn natural bidding.

 

Very often you will have a situation

 

1P (1) - 2D (2)

2P (3)

...

 

(1) natural, +5, altough limited to 11-15 (or whatever)

(2) natural forcing for at least one round

(3) minimum opening bid

 

This situation is also possible playing SAYC, the only

thing missing is the limit opening bid.

 

In essence playing Precision you need to know natural bidding

also very well, i.e. you need to learn two bidding systems.

 

And this effort makes only sense, if you play "real", i.e play very

often with the same partner, because you need to learn more

and train it.

 

Marlowe

[bearmum]

Precision IS a system which my husband and I have played together from the early 80's -- but we have adapted it from a VERY simple system early on to one which has a few "bells & whistles" so I agree with Marlowe that it is much more difficult to play with a pickup partner than SAYC (which I also use playing 'online' becuse I have attempted to play Precision and mostly it was a complete disaster because settling on EXACTLY what to play was taking too long to agree

[adhoc3]

There're too many styles of Precision, better you have a stable partner to practise and play with. In BBO, you can sit and play SAYC without saying a word, but you will have to post CC if want to play Precision. :P

[Free]

First of all, the advantages:

- strong hands don't have that much problems as opening 1m and get pass-pass-pass.

- you can open light and the system will cover for you.

- you can jump on distributional hands rather than 'points'.

- you're playing a lot more relaxed.

- 2♣ (and perhaps 2♦) opening is imo hard to defend against.

- a weak NT opening gains more than it loses IF it fits perfectly in the system.

- depending on the system, your 2♦ opening might be an advantage... :)

 

Disadvantages:

- 1♣ is vulnerable for interference. It wouldn't be the first time opps intervene with 4♠ in second hand, good luck finding out your best game/slam. You better be prepared for all kinds of interference!

- depending on the precision version, your 1♦ opening can be doubleton. This is hard when opps intervene: you still have to find a Major fit, and when you have some ♦s you might not have any fit at all.

- 2♣ opening, but it has it's advantages as well. Missing a Major fit (and a distributional game) is aweful.

 

Remarks:

- having to bid natural, or having to learn special sequences is not a disadvantage imo. It's just something you have to do when you want to get good results. Btw, you can use a VERY easy structure over your 1♣ openings and don't have this problem anyway (start with control showing and both players bid natural)...

- losing a weak 2♦ is hardly a disadvantage imo, just open it at 3-level. :P

[helene_t]

If you play classic Wei Precision with natural 1♦, Precision is more natural than SAYC. On the frequent 11-15 HCP hands, SAYC bidders are likely to open a neboulous 1m which is vulnerable to interference and require messy auctions with FSF and check-back which have to been agreed upon. Precision bidders show their shape and range immediately with a natural 1♦, 1NT or 2♣ bid.

 

I'm not sure if the Precsion 1♣ opening is particularely vulnerable to interference. My experience from playing online is that opp's interference over 1♣ tends to give us good results since they are likely to bid too aggresively. This is probably partly due to the fact that they are inexperienced with defending against Precision and/or don't know each other's style. However, even against a good pair you have the advantage that you know that p has 16+ HCPs so that you can make a forcing freebid or negative double with less values than you would be able to after a SAYC 1m opening, and opener does not have the obligation to do something to show his 17 points if he's obstructed in the next round.

 

The biggest advantage of Precision at BBO is that those who put Precision on their card tend to know some kind of bidding system, which can't always be said about SAYC-players. The biggest disadvatage is that you have no idea what system is meant by "Precision".

 

For a regular partnership, I think the disadvantage of Precision is that there is no universal standard so you will have to make a lot of specific agreements. Of course you can agree to follow one book (say Berkowitz or Jannersten) but then you will still have to start from scratch with a new partner. But you say that several pairs play Precision at your club. Do they play the same system?

[paulg]

My experience is that people find Precision fairly easy to learn and play. Beginners and intermediates like the limited openings as they remove the need for using judgement on stronger hands that more natural systems require.

 

At club level it can be particularly effective due to the wide ability range within the club - weaker players tend to over-respect the 1♣ opener and so the disadvantages of the system are not exposed so often, and they do not handle the cumbersome 1♦ opener well either.

 

As you progress to stronger clubs and tournaments, opponents are much better prepared and will be more competitive. At this point you will need to put significantly more effort into your Precision system, and your results will depend far more on how well you know your system and your bidding judgement rather than the fact you are playing SAYC or Precision.

 

Of course, OliverC runs Precision sessions in the BIL.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[hrothgar]

People who play precision sometimes forget,

that they also need to learn natural bidding.

Sadly, the people who play natural systems seem to believe that they have a god given right to live in blissful ignorance about the rest of the world.

[Gerben42]

Everyone has to learn natural bidding. Even playing relay Precision 90% of the hands will have no relays and therefore natural bidding (if you play something complicated there may be conventions and who knows what involved but in the end it all amounts to the same).

 

Just like to add that if you want to learn natural bidding, play Polish Club :)

[Rebound]

IMO Precision may be harder to remember, but provided you can, it is easier to play than SAYC. And frankly, I would sooner encounter a strong pair of opponents playing SAYC than Precision. It is true that precision gains mainly on uncontested auctions and depending on the level of play those may be more or less frequent (assuming on the given hand it is "your hand"), but with a good structure over intereferance, that can be dealt with fairly handily as well. In fact, I submit that SAYC suffers some serious disadvantages in contested auctions also due to the huge range of the opening 1-level bids. I believe it is often the case that knowing the limits of a precision opener's hand permits responder to more accurately gage the strength of the opponents' hands than after an opening bid which could range from 12 (give or take) to 20 or so depending on style. This should theoretically make close decisions like whether to bid, double or pass that much easier.

 

Mind you, I am biased. When I was first taught to play, I learned Standard American first but as soon as I had a grasp of the fundamental concepts, I was taught precision and I loved it from the get-go. It suits me very well and the system itself immediately improved my results when playing duplicate. Many of the difficult judgement calls inherant in Standard were removed. I was able to focus more on the play of the hand. This did not prevent my bidding judgement from improving, however. It merely lessened the burden of that particular aspect of the game.

 

Of course, your mileage may vary - this is strictly my opinion. It bears repeating, however, that over 1♥/1♠ the auction tends to be every bit as natural as SAYC if not more so. A clear understanding of this is important.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

Precision is a good system to learn and play. Like all other methods you have to

 

learn the system and play it well or your results will suffer.

 

I happen to play a system somewhat like Precision in a mad science way.

 

Precision has a number of disadvantages and a number of advantages.

 

I like to play a 15-17 NT to allow playing very narrow higher NT bids(they all show only two point ranges(21-22 for opening 2NT and 1C-1D-2NT=23-24)

 

When I started out playing Precision, I liked the 13-15HCP 1NT and 1C-1any-1NT rebid

showing 16-18.

 

What to do with 19HCP hands soon caused me to reconsider. I currently play

1C-1D-1NT=18-20 so I do not have to be concerned about jumping to 2NT with

19-20HCPs.

 

My 18+ range also helps in competitive bidding after my 1C opening, partner 'knows' that my balanced hands will be 18+HCP.

 

The 5 card major structure is a very powerful method 'limited' to 11-15HCP.

You do not have to struggle to bid because opener 'might hold' a 20+HCP hand.

 

The 1D opening does sometimes make it difficult to find diamonds(for both sides!),

however, opening 1D makes it easy to find 4-4 and 5-3 major fits.

 

The disavantages of opening 1C are vastly over stated IMHO. Two of the very best American pairs play 1C forcing and seem to do quite well for several decades now.

 

The trend is towards playing that 2C openings show 6+ cards(what I now play) which removes some problems from opening a 2C bid.

 

Sometimes the system 'bites' you because a bid does not allow you to get to a 'normal' contract. The reverse of this situation is also true. A Precision 2D opening showing 4414 often steals the contract.

 

Precision is a lot of fun to plan and I tend to get good results so I hope to continue to play my Precision type methods. :)

 

Regards,

Robert

[barmar]

There're too many styles of Precision, better you have a stable partner to practise and play with. In BBO, you can sit and play SAYC without saying a word, but you will have to post CC if want to play Precision. :)

Most online players think they know SAYC, but, sadly, many of them don't really. E.g. many think that 1m-2NT is invitational, but it's actually game forcing (one of SAYC's weaknesses, IMHO), and many don't even realize that Jacoby 2NT is part of the system.

 

So while you're more likely to be able to find pickup partners who will agree to play SAYC, it doesn't really mean you're really playing the same style.

[pclayton]

Precision is fun! Try it you'll like it. I won't go into the pros and cons, but its most effective when you DONT open 1♣.

 

And if it turns out that its not something you want to pursue, you will have a better understanding about how to defend it

[Guest Jlall]

Precision is fun! Try it you'll like it. I won't go into the pros and cons, but its most effective when you DONT open 1♣.

And when you dont open 1D, and when you don't open 2C :)

 

But yes, you are a huge winner over natural systems with 1M openers in precision.

[Gerben42]

Precision is not harder or easier than any other system. If anything, it is the same difficulty to learn and easier to play since you have to make up less lies when describing your hand. If you want a good Precision-book try Meckstroth's "Win the Bermuda Bowl with me". This won't learn you the system but it will show you some bidding decisions Precision players face.

[pigpenz]

Preciscion SAYC.....stick to the basics firsts like Watsons Play of the Hand....understand card combinations both for declarer play but also for defensive play....those will help you more than any bidding system will in my opinion.

[han]

If you are interested in becoming a better bidder and you have played SAYC for a long time and are comfortable with it, switching to precision will definitely be good for you. Not because your game will necessarily be better when youplay precision, but when you learn a second system you gain understanding of what bidding is all about. Even if you would decide to switch back to SAYC after some time then you would likely be a better bidder. Also, you would learn how to bid against precision, because you will notice how much you hate it when they bid over your strong club.

[Vilgan]

But you say that several pairs play Precision at your club. Do they play the same system?

 

I believe so, the people that play precision frequently play together at the NBC's or (with the newer players) were taught by one who does. SAYC is definitely more common, just thinking about trying to learn precision since it seems to say more with less.

 

I am doing pretty well I think considering I just learned this game recently, but will be near Slovakia for the junior pairs thing this summer so it'd be pretty cool to develop a game to the point I won't get run over by people who have been playing a lot longer.

 

Eric

[luke warm]

And when you dont open 1D, and when you don't open 2C :P

.

depending on what they mean :(