A Minor Problem

[Kalvan14]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=shj9dat8765ckt432]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1S - 1N* - 2C - ?

 

*: forcing 1 round[/hv]

 

System is 2/1, Hardy flavor if you want to know. What would you bid?

[luke warm]

3♣

[mike777]

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ [space] ♥ J9 ♦ AT8765 ♣ KT432

1S - 1N* - 2C - ?   *: forcing 1 round

 

System is 2/1, Hardy flavor if you want to know. What would you bid?

2D=BART, planning to rebid 3 clubs showing a good club raise next.

Hardy plays BART ala Mike Passell, see page 46 of Hardy book.

[bearmum]

3♣

[adhoc3]

2D=BART, planning to rebid 3 clubs showing a good club raise next.

Hardy plays BART ala Mike Passell, see page 46 of Hardy book.

2D seems too low. Opps could have a big fit in Heart.

[ArcLight]

3♣

 

Pard is probably 5-4 in Spades-Clubs.

Lots of distribution, opps are silent, probably a spade stack sitting over him.

Does pard have a big hand?

Where is this hand going? I think 3NT is unlikely.

Will pard be able to ruff the diamonds good?

[Chamaco]

2D=BART, planning to rebid 3 clubs showing a good club raise next.

Hardy plays BART ala Mike Passell, see page 46 of Hardy book.

Yes, Bart (or equivalent) is best here.

 

Without agremeents, I pass, and raise to 3C when opps compete.

 

I don't want pard to get excited, my void in his suit is a danger signal: if I raise immediately to 3C and pard bids 3NT, what shall I do ? If he does bid 3NT, he is likely to have such a wastage that 4C and 5C will have little play.

 

However, even passing 2C can be a big risk if pard has a 15-17 hand....

This is yet another example showing the need in 2/1 or similar of a Gazzilli/Riton 2C for strong-ish hands....

[Guest Jlall]

4C. 3 seems really wimpy. I would bid 3 if 2 of my low diamonds were low spades. A lot of random minimums with spade wastage produce game here. My first reaction was to bid 5C but partner may only have 3 clubs so we have to let him off the hook.

 

6-5 with the ace of my side suit and the king of trumps is a great hand. The only bad thing about my hand is being 0-2 instead of 1-1 in the majors.

[ArcLight]

Am I too pessimistic a bidder?

 

With 4 clubs are you not commited to game or slam?

 

If pard is 5-4-2-2 I can see 2 easy heart losers. There can be one more too?

 

If pard holds:

AKQxx

Qx

Kx

Qxxx

 

5 clubs wont make, provided opps cash the hearts.

 

AKQxx

Qx

xx

AQxx

goes down if the diamond finesse is off.

 

 

Also, in 2/1 pard may not even have 3 clubs.

5-2-3-3 is possible. OR 5-3-2-3.

It may not be possible to set up your diamonds.

 

If pard has a big hand, we have room to explore over 3 clubs.

 

Or should my thinking be "This is IMPS, I bid game if its 38% or better"?

[Guest Jlall]

Am I too pessimistic a bidder?

 

With 4 clubs are you not commited to game or slam?

 

If pard is 5-4-2-2 I can see 2 easy heart losers. There can be one more too?

 

If pard holds:

AKQxx

Qx

Kx

Qxxx

 

5 clubs wont make, provided opps cash the hearts.

 

AKQxx

Qx

xx

AQxx

goes down if the diamond finesse is off.

 

 

Also, in 2/1 pard may not even have 3 clubs.

5-2-3-3 is possible. OR 5-3-2-3.

It may not be possible to set up your diamonds.

 

If pard has a big hand, we have room to explore over 3 clubs.

 

Or should my thinking be "This is IMPS, I bid game if its 38% or better"?

I would not think 4C is forcing, you did start with 1N. It shows a lot of clubs and a distributional invite (I think). Partner will put emphasis on his clubs, red suit controls, and prime spade cards.

 

As for your examples, we will indeed very likely get to game and go down. I do think there is some bias in your example hands as they all give pard the AKQ of spades. Sure he rates to have wastage, but that would be unlucky. Also, all of your examples give partner a doubleton diamond. Sure he may have a doubleton, but he also might have 0, 1, or 3 diamonds.

 

I don't know if you are too pessimistic, perhaps I am too optimistic :) I won't bother with hand constructions as with a hand like this I could easily construct a minimum opener which partner will pass 3C with that makes 7C cold, or a hand just shy of a jumpshift that doesn't make game. This is strictly a judgement call.

 

I do agree with your point that partner can bid with a strong hand over 3C, the real issue is how often will we miss game when pard has a hand that will pass 3C but bid over 4C versus how often we will go off 1 in 4C or get to a bad 5C game when pard would have passed 3C.

[han]

I like the BART suggestion, and I agree that without this gadget 4C seems right.

[mike777]

Am I too pessimistic a bidder?

 

With 4 clubs are you not commited to game or slam?

 

If pard is 5-4-2-2 I can see 2 easy heart losers.  There can be one more too?

 

If pard holds:

AKQxx

Qx

Kx

Qxxx

 

5 clubs wont make, provided opps cash the hearts.

 

AKQxx

Qx

xx

AQxx

goes down if the diamond finesse is off.

 

 

Also, in 2/1 pard may not even have 3 clubs.

5-2-3-3 is possible.  OR 5-3-2-3.

It may not be possible to set up your diamonds.

 

If pard has a big hand, we have room to explore over 3 clubs.

 

Or should my thinking be "This is IMPS, I bid game if its 38% or better"?

I would not think 4C is forcing, you did start with 1N. It shows a lot of clubs and a distributional invite (I think). Partner will put emphasis on his clubs, red suit controls, and prime spade cards.

 

As for your examples, we will indeed very likely get to game and go down. I do think there is some bias in your example hands as they all give pard the AKQ of spades. Sure he rates to have wastage, but that would be unlucky. Also, all of your examples give partner a doubleton diamond. Sure he may have a doubleton, but he also might have 0, 1, or 3 diamonds.

 

I don't know if you are too pessimistic, perhaps I am too optimistic :P I won't bother with hand constructions as with a hand like this I could easily construct a minimum opener which partner will pass 3C with that makes 7C cold, or a hand just shy of a jumpshift that doesn't make game. This is strictly a judgement call.

 

I do agree with your point that partner can bid with a strong hand over 3C, the real issue is how often will we miss game when pard has a hand that will pass 3C but bid over 4C versus how often we will go off 1 in 4C or get to a bad 5C game when pard would have passed 3C.

Keep in mind in Hardy my understanding is the 2 club rebid could be on 2 little clubs...I think rebid of 2 clubs not 2D is standard with..5=3=3=2 shape.

[ArcLight]

>Keep in mind in Hardy my understanding is the 2 club rebid could be on 2 little clubs...I think rebid of 2 clubs not 2D is standard with..5=3=3=2 shape.

 

Doh! :P

 

Well that makes a difference! If pard is likely to have only 2 or 3 clubs, this hand isn't going anywhere. Maybe 3NT if pard has a ton. 3♣

[mike777]

>Keep in mind in Hardy my understanding is the 2 club rebid could be on 2 little clubs...I think rebid of 2 clubs not 2D is standard with..5=3=3=2 shape.

 

Doh!  :P

 

Well that makes a difference!  If pard is likely to have only 2 or 3 clubs, this hand isn't going anywhere.  Maybe 3NT if pard has a ton. 3♣

That is why BART comes up alot. BART solves alot of problems in that great junkyard known as forcing NT but not all of course.

[Blofeld]

4♣ was the first bid that came to mind.

[luis]

4♣ not very happy with my choice.

[mike777]

BART per Mike Passell:

 

1s=1nt

2c=2d=BART

 

The two diamond call is artificial and shows one of several hands. Opener should expect that responder holds exactly 5 hearts. Holding minimum values and exactly three hearts, opener will bid two hearts.

 

Responder will have one of five hand types:

1) Fully five hearts and two spades. Responder plans to pass opener's rebid (hopefully two hearts).

 

2) A doubleton spade honor with nine to eleven hcp. Responder plans to correct two hearts to two spades, pass a rebid of two spades, or raise two notrumps to three notrump.

 

3) A game invitational hand with a good diamond suit. Responder plans to bid three diamonds.

 

4) A good club raise. Responder plans to raise three clubs over partner's rebid.

 

5) A raise to two notrump with 4 clubs. Responder plans to bid two notrump.

 

 

1s=1nt=2c=...(3c)=courtesy raise....(2s)=very limited hand...(2h)=6 hearts or 5 very good ones and stiff spade......(3d)=preemptive.....

 

 

BTW in the version I learned 2d asks partner to show any distribution with 2+h but not strong enough to bid 3H....

BTW2 With almost all 5=3=3=2 13 hcp hands opener would rebid 2D not 2 clubs..and passes with 11-12....and opens 1nt with 14-16..so BART comes up less playing this style.

[Kalvan14]

2♣ always guarantees at least 3♣ [the only case where you may have just 2 clubs is in an auction 1♥-1N-2♣]

 

We are opening 1N with 5-card major and 15-17 HCP, so another chunk of hands with just 3 clubs is gone.

 

2♦ (BART) is certainly an option. IMO, this is a very peculiar hand: a 6-5 with a guaranteed fit of at least 8 cards in ♣. If this were MP, I would probably have used BART, since I would not like to loose the 3N option (even if it would make me a bit nervous playing 3N). This time I choose to re-bid 4♣ [certainly non-forcing, after my 1N, but highly invitational], which IMHO is the most descriptive bid.

 

Whatever. If you bid 2♦, pard rebids 3♥; if you bid 4♣, pard rebids 4♥.

Any idea?

[mikeh]

Bart for me, and I am not worried about the opps getting together in ♥, for the simple reason that one of the hands I may be showing with my 2♦ bid is ♥!

 

3♣ ain't enough. 4♣ is too much (altho clearly non-forcing). it would get my vote if I were 1=1=6=5 or 0=2=5=6, but not with this hand.

 

So 2♦ followed by 3♣, with a smile (showing extras)

 

If Bart were unavailable (and the post was ambiguous altho other posters say Hardy uses Bart), then 3♣ rather than 4. I don't have quite enough extras.

 

BTW I am assuming that 2♣ shows 3+: it would not for me. I rebid 2♣ with (as an example) AK7632 AJx xx Ax, needing more texture in the ♠ suit to jump to 3♠, but this is a style thing and not a standard treatment.

[mike777]

2♣ always guarantees at least 3♣ [the only case where you may have just 2 clubs is in an auction 1♥-1N-2♣]

 

We are opening 1N with 5-card major and 15-17 HCP, so another chunk of hands with just 3 clubs is gone.

 

2♦ (BART) is certainly an option. IMO, this is a very peculiar hand: a 6-5 with a guaranteed fit of at least 8 cards in ♣. If this were MP, I would probably have used BART, since I would not like to loose the 3N option (even if it would make me a bit nervous playing 3N). This time I choose to re-bid 4♣ [certainly non-forcing, after my 1N, but highly invitational], which IMHO is the most descriptive bid.

 

Whatever. If you bid 2♦, pard rebids 3♥; if you bid 4♣, pard rebids 4♥.

Any idea?

"Whatever. If you bid 2♦, pard rebids 3♥; if you bid 4♣, pard rebids 4♥.

Any idea?"

 

6 clubs seems clear now, Responder's hand has become giant hand.

BTW I assume 4D over 4clubs would be rkc for clubs?

 

btw Partner cannot be 5=3=2=3 with 13 hcp on this auction.

btw2 Partner should not be taking your 4club bid as a slam try in hearts or we will need to have a chat :(.

[mikeh]

2♣ always guarantees at least 3♣ [the only case where you may have just 2 clubs is in an auction 1♥-1N-2♣]

 

We are opening 1N with 5-card major and 15-17 HCP, so another chunk of hands with just 3 clubs is gone.

 

2♦ (BART) is certainly an option. IMO, this is a very peculiar hand: a 6-5 with a guaranteed fit of at least 8 cards in ♣. If this were MP, I would probably have used BART, since I would not like to loose the 3N option (even if it would make me a bit nervous playing 3N). This time I choose to re-bid 4♣ [certainly non-forcing, after my 1N, but highly invitational], which IMHO is the most descriptive bid.

 

Whatever. If you bid 2♦, pard rebids 3♥; if you bid 4♣, pard rebids 4♥.

Any idea?

 

 

I am not jumping to slam unless I see no other alternative.

 

4♠ is out: who knows what 4♠ shows on this jammed auction, but it could be a delayed effort to play there (not my choice) or a cue-bid, and I will not make my first cue bid on a void in partner's known long suit.

 

4N: to me this is the standout choice, but I appreciate that the great majority of bridge players devoted too much of their education to learning various forms of blackwood :(

 

To me, in a 4-level cue-bidding minor-suit auction, 4N is a positive non-specific move. It says: I like my hand for slam purposes, but not enough for me to drive beyond 5♣. In particular, my hand is too strong to bid 5♣, and I do not want to bid 4♠.

 

Partner will look at Aces and ♣ texture and bid accordingly. With Axxxx Axx x AQJx he should bid 6: with KJxxx AQx x AQxx it is close. With KQJxx Axx x AJxx he should bid 5♣.

 

If 4N is keycard for you, consider changing your methods and in the meantime bid 5 or 6 ♣ depending on how conservative a bidder partner is and how lucky you feel.

 

All of this presupposes that partner has not made a basic bridge error, thinking that we have agreed ♥, but one should NEVER assume that partner is a moron. If he is a moron, then he will learn it shortly: if he is not, and you have played him to be one, he had better have a good sense of humour :P

[pclayton]

If I was playing a semi-forcing 1N, then 4♣ has some appeal. But if 2!c can be some random 5332 then 4♣ seems overexhuberant.

 

I'm not familiar enough with BART to know if this hand is good enough for a slow sequence to show a good raise.

[mike777]

"Partner will look at Aces and ♣ texture and bid accordingly. With Axxxx Axx x AQJx he should bid 6: with KJxxx AQx x AQxx it is close. With KQJxx Axx x AJxx he should bid 5♣."

 

I must admit with last hand example I would have just bid 4D over 4 Clubs and found out I was missing 2 key cards...and ended up in 5 clubs...bidding 4h slam try seems way too much after bidding 3H.

4d=4nt=2 without queen.

5C=signoff missing 2 keycards.

[Kalvan14]

• Partner is not a moron
  
• 4H is certainly a cue-bid agreeing clubs
  
• partner has almost certainly a non-balanced hand : best guess would be 5-3-1-4 or 5-2-1-5. Might be 6-2-1-4. Must have 4/+ clubs.
  
• 4NT would not be KC or Blackwood. The standard agreement we play is that guarantees a control in the unbid suits, and is positive. You might call it a "very serious" 4N
  
• 4D would not be RKC either. In such an auction, it is quite unlikely that KC can be the answer to all the problems. 4D or 4H are the only positive cue-bids available for opener, and they must be used to give a picture of the hand. 4S would tend to deny 4C, and certainly would show 6 spades. Btw, before someone asks: a hand featuring 6 spades and 5 losers or less would not be opened 1S.
  
• if the auction had been 1S-1N-2D-4D the positive cue bids would have been 4H and 5C
  
• 4NT (by opener) would again be positive, and forward going, but it would deny 1st round control in either of the unbid suits.
  

[mike777]

• 
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
• Partner is not a moron
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
• 4H is certainly a cue-bid agreeing clubs
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
• partner has almost certainly a non-balanced hand : best guess would be 5-3-1-4 or 5-2-1-5. Might be 6-2-1-4. Must have 4/+ clubs.
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
• 4NT would not be KC or Blackwood. The standard agreement we play is that guarantees a control in the unbid suits, and is positive. You might call it a "very serious" 4N
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
• 4D would not be RKC either. In such an auction, it is quite unlikely that KC can be the answer to all the problems. 4D or 4H are the only positive cue-bids available for opener, and they must be used to give a picture of the hand. 4S would tend to deny 4C, and certainly would show 6 spades. Btw, before someone asks: a hand featuring 6 spades and 5 losers or less would not be opened 1S.
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
• if the auction had been 1S-1N-2D-4D the positive cue bids would have been 4H and 5C
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
• 4NT (by opener) would again be positive, and forward going, but it would deny 1st round control in either of the unbid suits.
   
   
   
   
   
   
  

Good luck all of this seems like a lawyer preparing the case of why partner is confused and messed up, all this serious cuebidding, etc...uggg...just give me good old rkc at a low level....cheers!

 

Once partner bids 4H cuebid for clubs but not RKC, I really think she is showing huge hand that for some reason cannot bid RKC.

 

Please note 2d and then 4clubs are really minimum invite bids, I have so much more once partner bids 3H and then 4H!