18-19 point hands in SAYC?

[Vilgan]

Still sorta new, but reading up on conventions etc it seems like I've mostly been learning SAYC and most of it goes pretty well. The one area I've really had things turn out bad a few times, are the 18-19 point hands that look something like 4 4 2 3. I'll open a club, then get pass, pass, pass. Partner didn't do anything wrong if they only have 3-4 points, but its turned out less than pretty several times. (playing a weak 6 card club fit instead of an 8 card heart fit).

 

From what I understand, standard practice in a semi balanced 18-19 point hand like that without 5 of a major is an opening 1 of a minor. But in play, this has bit me several times.

 

Is this a problem anyone else encounters? Right now I'm almost considering just calling 1 NT 15-18 and 2 NT 19-21 to eliminate the gap. Or alternatively, looking into precision since the 1 club bid is forcing. But I really hate getting 1♣ pass pass pass or 1♦ pass pass pass when opening a minor due to a lack of a 5 card major.

 

Thanks for any pointers or advice :lol:

 

Eric

[keylime]

I use the Mexican 2D opening, which shows exactly 18-19 high card points, balanced, and can hold a weakish 5 card major in it. With holding a good five card major I look at the rest of my hand and determine if I should open 2D or 1M.

 

The responses I use are identical to Versace-Lauria's excellent structure.

 

This opening is in Kokish-Kraft's, Versace-Lauria's, and if memory serves, Duboin-Bocchi's methods.

[hrothgar]

This can definely be an issue...

 

Playing MP, I'll often look for an excuse to open 1M on a 4 card suit...

If the bidding goes 1X - swiss, at least were in a decent scoring partial

[Guest Jlall]

Or you could just respond light to 1m IE all hands with a stiff or doubleton in partners minor, all hands with a 5 card major.

[mike777]

Or you could just respond light to 1m IE all hands with a stiff or doubleton in partners minor, all hands with a 5 card major.

Ditto, if you are not going to play Mexican 2D which, granted, is not for new players.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

I suspect that you have had an unlucky couple of hands if the bidding is normally going 1m-p-p-p The modern bidder overcalls on fairly weak hands. Many conventional bids are used to show shapely hands. Reopening doubles in fourth seat are sometimes played as 8+ and many players bid 1NT in 4th on 10-12 or less HCP.

 

I would stick with your current methods and see if the unlucky hands continue.

 

I am a Big Club bidder so I would not tell you that playing Big Club methods do not have some advantages.

 

Opening 1NT 15-18 and 2NT-19-21 will create additional problems as you will have to guess what partner holds in a wide range NT opening.

 

Regards,

Robert

[Vilgan]

1♣ pass or 1♦ pass being semi 1 round forcing (barring 4 or maybe 3 in that suit) seems like a good deal.

 

I would sorta miss the weak 2♦, had 2 games earlier where I a weak 2♦ would have been perfect but 3♦ was pushing it a bit too far especially if partner was broke.

 

At high levels, does anyone really play 2♦ = weak diamonds, or do they all have special meanings?

 

Thanks for the help :P

 

Eric

[DelfinoD]

I tend to play 2d Multi with 19(18)-20 balanced and 18-21 on single minor suit. Thanks to this system is really great. You open 1c/d with 3-4 cards only with 12-14 hands. You have absolutely no problems with forcing (you can't have single suited or balanced hand). For example:

 

1c - 1h

3h (15-17pc, 5c4h with a singleton or a suit oriented 5422)

 

1d - 1s

2nt (natural but not balanced 4441s or 5d422, but rather suit oriented)

 

1c - 1s

2d (natural 5c4+d, 18+pc)

 

The only forcing problem is when you have a fit in pt. suit, but thats not really a big problem:

 

1c - 1h

4h (18-21pc, 5c4h22 suit oriented)

 

the responce is high but describes your hand really good (with a singleton you use splinter, with nt oriented you open 2d or 2nt)

 

etc.

 

Putting 18-20 in 2d is not that risky as opening 2nt with it because:

 

- ops can bid 2h/s saving you or even they can get doubled

- after double you can still play 2h/s yourself

- its very hard to double 2d, because opener can have strong diamond opening, and win 2dx with partner giving 0pc

 

Of course problems after:

 

1h-1s

?

 

still remain

 

you can use forcing 2nt as a rebid with strong heart or strong balanced opening, but then you have to open 1nt with 5h332s 15-17 (with 3 spades you can bid 3s)

[Guest Jlall]

At high levels, does anyone really play 2♦ = weak diamonds, or do they all have special meanings?

Most north american experts do. In europe it seems to be uncommon.