calling all experts

[Chamaco]

A good initiative would be that 4 experts sit down at the table and explain their thinking aloud to the kibitzers during the bidding and play.

 

Of course the bidding should be "standard-ish"

[Guest Jlall]

A good initiative would be that 4 experts sit down at the table and explain their thinking aloud to the kibitzers during the bidding and play.

 

Of course the bidding should be "standard-ish"

BIL did this with fred involved and rotating experts. I really liked this concept.

[mikeh]

A good initiative would be that 4 experts sit down at the table and explain their thinking aloud to the kibitzers during the bidding and play.

 

Of course the bidding should be "standard-ish"

BIL did this with fred involved and rotating experts. I really liked this concept.

I like this: especially if I can persuade one of my ftf partners to play: it is not very informative if the chat is "I don't know what he has, but I will do this because...": at least, not as informative as "he is, by our methods, showing this, and so I will do that because ...."

[han]

I have agreed with Jillybean to give a first lesson on Saturday. Although I'm not nearly as good a bridge player as some of the people who have reacted here (and I'm slightly uncomfortable reacting to a thread with this title) I think that I should be able to help intermediate an advanced players.

 

What I have in mind for Saturday is something along the lines of what Shep used to do (perhaps (s)he still does?). Let 4 students play a couple of hands, answer questions and make comments about the play afterwards. I would like to focus on counting. I think I might ask the defenders right before the opening lead is made what they expect the dummy and declarer to have, and perhaps after trick 3 I will ask them to guess declarer's shape. That should be fun.

 

I was thinking that I might ask the kibitzers (in case more than 4 students show up :P) to kibitz only one player. Justin suggested this once for good counting practice, and I like the idea very much.

 

I do not think that there is any need for screening for this format to work, students of different levels can participate.

[ArcLight]

Theer are many many books on declarer play.

 

There are a some good books in the "over my shoulder style" (2 by Reese, 2 by Lawrence, Meckstroth, Brian Senior, Fred Giteman)

 

There are many books on the play of famous hands.

 

 

What can an "Advanced Intermediate Lounge" do better?

ideas?

 

1) We can watch as experts play, all talking to the kibitzers. If they don't do a lot of talking, like commenting on inferences, I'm not sure how useful it will be. Explaining what their bid shows is good, but also commenting on why opps did/didn't compete, and what they are worried about is better.

Will the experts talk about their concern during the play of the hand?

That might distract them too!

 

 

2) Experts can lecture on the play of a hand. Since there are so many declarer play books, to me, this doesn't add much value.

 

3) Play prepared hands that have some trap. To be honest, I think 4 intermediate can look at most hands double dummy and see a way to make it or set it. It just takes some time to review the hands. You don't need the experts time for this.

 

4) Experts can rotate partners. They can comment on the play afterwards and review the hand.

 

5) *** To me most important *** The expert can watch as 4 players play, asking them private questions to focus their thoughts. If they make a bad lead, he can ask them about it. He can ask players to stop and explain their thoughts on the hand so far.

Maybe you don't even need an expert for this, just an intermediate, who can ask some routine questions to help focus the players attention.

 

I think getting direct feed back is very useful, and next to impossible to get.

[Chamaco]

I would like to focus on counting

 

======

 

I was thinking that I might ask the kibitzers (in case more than 4 students show up :P) to kibitz only one player. Justin suggested this once for good counting practice, and I like the idea very much.

Both ideas are great, look forward to it :-)

[ArcLight]

Hannie,

Good man for volunteering! What time?

 

 

>I do not think that there is any need for screening for this format to work, students of different levels can participate.

 

The only problem, is some BIL players are very weak. Playing defense there is really not fun when pard is very weak. Players don't make correct leads, or they switch suits all the time, giving declarer all kinds of free finesses.

 

Its also very hard to draw inferences or count with bad players playing. You expect the Ace to be with East because West lead the suit in a Spade contract. Turns out West lead the 2 from A J 2.

 

Pard leads the club 4 from 9 7 4 2. "I had no other lead". Well that certainly caused me to misplace cards.

 

I think its not fun to play with "much weaker" players, just as it wouldn't be fun for you or Justin to play with me.

 

Also, playing against weak players does not benfit tou in the long run.

You learn bad habits, or get used to getting away with things taht strong players will nail you for.

[mike777]

I would like to focus on counting

 

======

 

I was thinking that I might ask the kibitzers (in case more than 4 students show up :P) to kibitz only one player. Justin suggested this once for good counting practice, and I like the idea very much.

Both ideas are great, look forward to it :-)

Counting did someone say Counting lessons? Where do I send my check?

[sceptic]

I would not like to see an exam to get into this club as I could fail or pass on a good or bad day but I am sure I would benefit from the lessons

 

If some of the BIL teachers were to teach at this level would the time available to them take them away from the BIL (I do hope not)

 

Sustainability?, did not someone else try something along these lines

 

Maureen has successfully managed BIL since it started with the help of some very nice hardworking people, she is also a tireless trooper and I have to take my hat off to her. I hope you realise what you are taking on Jilly, if you make half the success of this as Maureen has of BIL, I will take my hat off to you as well.

 

I also hope that lessons are not scheduled along side BIL lessons

[sceptic]

The only problem, is some BIL players are very weak. Playing defense there is really not fun when pard is very weak. Players don't make correct leads, or they switch suits all the time, giving declarer all kinds of free finesses.

 

I am curious about this statement, why do you say things like this ???, I find you extremelly irritating at times, it is pretty obvious there will be weak players in BIL, I actually thought that was the idea of the Club, so they have somewehere to play where they do not have to meet experts like yourself that don't get any enjoyment out of playing with weak players.

 

Maureen should ban you for being over qualified

[jillybean]

I would not like to see an exam to get into this club as I could fail or pass on a good or bad day but I am sure I would benefit from the lessons

 

If some of the BIL teachers were to teach at this level would the time available to them take them away from the BIL (I do hope not)

 

Sustainability?, did not someone else try something along these lines

 

Maureen has successfully managed BIL since it started with the help of some very nice hardworking people, she is also a tireless trooper and I have to take my hat off to her.  I hope you realise what you are taking on Jilly, if you make half the success of this as Maureen has of BIL, I will take my hat off to you as well.

 

I also hope that lessons are not scheduled along side BIL lessons

I won't respond to the general tone of this note but I will say I am not starting a private club. If you had read my earlier posts I think I made this quite clear.

 

The sessions will be scheduled to fit in with the people who have offered to run them.

 

jb

[pclayton]

JB:

 

Whatever gets decided, I'll help out.  For now I'll exit the screening debate. Unfortunately this thread has become argumentative and I fear it will be counterproductive for what is a worthwhile end.  :(

 

If screening is used, I'll assist and if you just want players to have an 'open thinking' session, I'll help out with that too.

 

I'm not in a position these days to put together a full blown lesson plan however.

Thanks , I will take you up on your offer of a thinking session :)

 

I will just start off with some specific sessions and tournaments+review on a casual, as available basis. I am happy to coordinate, advertise and organize the experts to get these sessions going. I can run tournaments and manage the hands for review at a teaching table afterwards, I could look after a table, organize victims, errr players etc.

 

We have 2 sessions ready to go just waiting for confirmation of date/time.

 

I am painfully aware of some of the pitfalls of running "private clubs" and I want to avoid falling into the same trap. Maybe in time a new club will be created, people like to belong to something and the club structure does add value. The committee can then address all these sticky issues.

 

jb

YW :)

 

Voice would be a great feature for this. Instead of madly typing all of our thoughts as we go through a hand it would cool if we could just verbalize as it is our turn to play.

 

When I participated in a few of these in BIL, thats what took the longest and was most aggravating; because a LOT goes through your mind as you think about a deal and it would neat if those watching could just sort of 'tune-in' as if your brain was a radio. Freaky but cool! B) :ph34r: :) :ph34r:

 

And effective too. If I was watching Fred, thats exactly how I'd like it to be portayed.

[Blofeld]

Voice would be a great feature for this. Instead of madly typing all of our thoughts as we go through a hand it would cool if we could just verbalize as it is our turn to play.

 

When I participated in a few of these in BIL, thats what took the longest and was most aggravating; because a LOT goes through your mind as you think about a deal and it would neat if those watching could just sort of 'tune-in' as if your brain was a radio. Freaky but cool! :( :ph34r: B) :ph34r:

 

And effective too. If I was watching Fred, thats exactly how I'd like it to be portayed.

That's an absolutely lovely idea. Though I've no idea of the practicalities of the thing.

[jillybean]

you could hook up some people via messenger so people can hear you think, (and breath and swallow and squirm..... :ph34r: )

[Guest Jlall]

because a LOT goes through your mind as you think about a deal and it would neat if those watching could just sort of 'tune-in' as if your brain was a radio.

hmm I dunno on some deals when I'm playing online I often think (and mutter) some inappropriate words, LOL.

[Thymallus]

A wise Man said earlier in the thread

 

"5) *** To me most important *** The expert can watch as 4 players play, asking them private questions to focus their thoughts. If they make a bad lead, he can ask them about it. He can ask players to stop and explain their thoughts on the hand so far.

Maybe you don't even need an expert for this, just an intermediate, who can ask some routine questions to help focus the players attention."

 

 

From an educational point of view this approach is by far the strongest. To get really "deep learning" you need to be involved in the process and to get the teaching at the point of difficulty (education/psych speak : cognitive dissonance)

and this promotes the most lasting effects.

 

Watching others simply is not as effective.

 

I can show you how to repair a hernia, but you wouldn't be able to fix one on your own. I can guide you through how to repair a hernia yourself and you will be much more equipped to do it yourself. (btw there is good evidence to show that a trainee hernia repair done in this manner is as good as an expert op!)

 

Reading books, kibbing experts etc is no substitute for real on the job teaching.

[ArcLight]

>I can show you how to repair a hernia, but you wouldn't be able to fix one on your own. I can guide you through how to repair a hernia yourself and you will be much more equipped to do it yourself.

 

Call me crazy, but something makes me think you are a doctor!

 

In any case I volunteered to do this with Jillybean and 3 of her friends.

I'll post feed back.

[42]

Good morning!

First of all I want to express that jillybean2's idea is great!

But I must admit that I am a bit scared because of:

 

Skill level: it depends on the context and the field you usually play in. I rated myself advanced, using the BBO definition. I would rate myself intermediate in a field of experts and beginner to idiot when I am tired. There is no definition what an intermediate+ / advanced player must know, some others mentioned that point earlier in this topic. On the way to become perfect I have the picture of a tree in mind. For the early basics you have the trunk, and with improvement the branches grow, one tree has many small branches 1m from the ground, another some bigger 1m from the ground and many smaller above 2,50m. What I want to say is that advanced player A must not necessarily have exactly the same knowledge as well as abilities as player B although they are both able to win even bigger tournaments.

The intention for visiting lectures for advanced has a very big variety: one player wants to practise on defence, one on counting, one on psychology at the table, one on squeezes, whatsoever. But this is easily solved by every participant himself who decides which lesson to join and which not, to stay or to leave.

 

Theory and practice: one might have read many, many books and know a lot about the theory of the game and therefore think that he/she is advanced or better (the books for intermediate/advanced players are already far too easy). All that does not necessarily imply that this person is an "advanced" player also at the table.

 

"Human nature":

a.) student: let's say you rate yourself advanced. You sit down at a practising table with 100 kibs. You start to play and make an error (or take a different line to what others think is correct) which is commentated immediately by the expert or at least 60 kibs. Isn't that mental stress for the players at the table? I've seen already many, many comments during vugraph or kibbing like "how did he/she get a star?" "Expert???" "And this person rates him-/herself advanced??" etc. Imo it is easier to "undress" oneself as beginner or intermediate.

b.) teacher: there is a nearly 100% guarantee that at least some of the visitors / students want to show the teacher that and where he errs and where the hammer hangs. It is a vision that people are just thankful for the service and listen and learn in modesty, taking what they need and declining silently what they don't. Look what happens to the most TDs who spend their time and knowledge for others.

 

I don't want to say that the idea is a dead born child, by no means!! I just want to express that all persons involved should carefully plan the format for the lessons to avoid disappointment. So this are my suggestions:

-The expert who offers a lesson should not allow everybody to talk at the table because that distracts the concentration for all. Perhaps a co-moderator, who collects and filters questions and decides which are interesting for the whole audience, would be an idea?

- The players who sit down to participate as students could get an anonymous nick like the vugraph operators. I don't know if that is possible by the software...?

- I personally like Mauro's idea of 4 experts playing and expressing their thoughts during bidding and play very much. My personal experience with watching vugraph is that seeing all 4 hands is not good for improvement. So perhaps the students kibitz only 1 expert who thinks aloud, experts rotate seats. That has the advantage that there is no overwhelming information by 4 persons at the same time, and 3 experts can rest :P

- I remember that I watched some time ago a lesson where someone prepared hands for a specific topic. It worked like Fred's learning programs. Great, but A LOT of work for the teacher.

Have a nice day, folks :(

Caren

[Thymallus]

In any case I volnteerded to do this with Jillybean and 3 of her friends.

I'll post feed back.

I confess to being deeply jealous of the lucky quartet.

 

In order to cement the learning that takes place in the session the players should make a record of where and how they went wrong and how things could be improved. This can then serve as a permanent reminder of the lesson and a trigger to go out and identify the next area for each of them to work upon.

 

"Reflective Diaries " like this are a powerful, and well validated, tool for adult learners.

[Thymallus]

In any case I volnteerded to do this with Jillybean and 3 of her friends.

I'll post feed back.

I confess to being deeply jealous of the lucky quartet.

 

In order to cement the learning that takes place in the session the players should make a record of where and how they went wrong and how things could be improved. This can then serve as a permanent reminder of the lesson and a trigger to go out and identify the next area for each of them to work upon.

 

"Reflective Diaries " like this are a powerful, and well validated, tool for adult learners.

[Gerben42]

I know that zillions of kibitzers can make you nervous. My first time playing on BBO Vugraph I am sure I did not play like "someone doing well in a national event". Simply because of the nerves. But the second time it was better :)

[han]

I plan to have my lesson Saturday at 4pm Wisconsin time (2 pm West coast, 5 pm East coast, 23:00 Netherlands :ph34r: ).

[ArcLight]

>I plan to have my lesson Saturday at 4pm Wisconsin time (2 pm West coast, 5 pm East coast, 23:00 Netherlands

 

Where? In BIL?

[jillybean]

The lesson will be held in the Main Bridge Club, add Hannie or me to your buddies and you will easily find the table. It is targeted to Intermediate+/Advanced players but open for anyone to kibitz.

 

If you are interested in participating message me on forum and I will add you to the list, first come, first served basis. Expect to do some taxing brain work if you havent done much on counting before!

 

thanks

jb

[kenberg]

I would like to be included. I believe I can make the 5:00 (Est) starting time but this is not certain. I will log on, join Hannie, and see what happens.

 

I am not clear on how one becomes one of the goats (the ones whose play gets publicly scrutinized and corrected) but I have long understood I am in need of such and would happily accept such a role. Indeed I get nervous under the lgihts but so what. I would also be happy to instead observe other struggling souls, and I know well the dictum about stones and glass houses.

 

 

Looking forward to the big event. Thanks greatly to JB for getting this going.

 

 

Ken