Against Weak NT

[adhoc3]

1NT -- dbl -- pass* -- ??pass

 

Assume the dbl showing open value.

 

Range of 1NT is 12-15, if it matters.

 

Edit: as MickyB pointed out, 'open value' shall be real, not a soso 11+ hcp hand. But isn't 15+ seems too much? I play 13+, in case the opps won't easily steal.

 

BTW, the pass* here usually forcing to redbl (safe landing), but for this post, let's say it's non-forcing.

[MickyB]

It would probably be more like 7+.

 

However, playing double as just showing opening values is not a good idea IMO, better to play it as 15+ or a source of tricks. Partner will then usually pass unless he has 0-4 points with a 5 card suit to run to (although some are happy to run to 4 card suits on weak hands).

[awm]

I play double as 15+ and I am quite convinced this is right. There are several issues here:

 

(1) The lighter double is more likely to get you into trouble, since more often the opponents have the values to make 1NTX or 1NTXX, and you are the one who will then be scrambling or going for a number...

 

(2) If the doubling side has to scramble, it is more awkward, because there is no re-re-double.

 

(3) I tend to play lighter balancing doubles. If I have 12-14 points balanced, then we won't miss a game unless partner has enough shape to bid, or also has 12-14 points balanced. Partner can balance with a double with a sound opening hand.

 

(4) If double shows only 12 or 13 points, then when you do have 15+, which is when the opponents tend to be in the most trouble (since all the points are basically behind opener), you can't actually get partner to sit for your penalty doubles (since he pulls with 7-9 because he expects only 12).

 

After partner's double (showing 15+) I will pass any 6+ hcp. If the opponents pass is non-forcing then I tend to pull with 0-5. If opponents pass is forcing, I will never pull unless I hold both 0-5 hcp and a decent five-card suit, since I can always pass and pull after the redouble. This is useful because sometimes doubler has an even bigger hand, and the opponents run anyway, or sometimes they misjudge whether to run or not (i.e. opener has a maximum opening, responder has a maximum run).

 

If you want weaker direct seat doubles, well, good luck to you. I've had exclusively good results when I open weak notrump and get doubled when the agreement is "opening hand" or "equal hand to opener." Anyways I'd suggest the time to leave it in is when you have more than half the deck (21+ points), with the additional considerations I discussed for forcing passes.

[Robert]

Hello everyone

 

Put me into the 15+HCP or a strong suit to lead with 13+HCP camp.

 

I ran a simulation with 13/14HCP doubles and too many examples either failed to beat the contract or they would make overtricks. :(

 

Just moving the range to 15+ seemed to gain much better results. Knowing that you hold 15+HCP allows responder to make an intelligent decision 'if' the other pair escapes. Your bidding makes much less sense 'if' it can start at 13+ HCP because game is unlikely without almost an opening bid in advancer's hand.

 

Opposite 15+, most 9+ hands will make game 'because' the defending points are 'stacked' in one hand. The weak NT bidder will often be end played and forced to lead away from his honors during the play of the hand.

 

The best results came when the doubler had a suit like AQJ10x(x) and about 13+ HCP because the contract tended to go two(+) off. :)

 

The other pair is not 'stealing' if they can make their contract or even make over tricks 'after' you double with less than 15HCP. :(

 

I once opened a 13-15HCP 1NT and heard a X behind me, partner looks perplexed, however, he did send the X back with a XX. Five redoubled overtricks later the smoke cleared. My partner had 15HCP, I held 13HCP and the doubler held 12HCP. :) :) :)

 

Regards,

Robert

[Chamaco]

(3) I tend to play lighter balancing doubles. If I have 12-14 points balanced, then we won't miss a game unless partner has enough shape to bid, or also has 12-14 points balanced. Partner can balance with a double with a sound opening hand.

I always thought this would make sense.

 

However, I stumbled in Edgar Kaplan's book on Competitive bidding, where he has a chapter on bidding vs strong and weak NT.

 

He says that, regardless of the NT range, he wants a natural double to be heavier, if anything, in the balancing seat, as opener's values are sitting offside.

 

If this is true, this tends to either:

 

a. suggest lighter action (say a *good* 13) in the direct seat, to avoid being stolen

b. keep direct seat quite sound (say 15+), but give up on the 13-13/12 games.

 

====

 

Just thinking aloud, I'd love feedback on this

[Gerben42]

I play as AWM also, double 15+ then sit for it with 6+ or even less if you have some useful stuff.

[hotShot]

The combined point range of your side is limited.

You should be strong enought to make 1-2 NT and depending on vul. not strong enough to make 3NT.

So your combined point range should be 22-24(25).

So if you dbl with 15+, 7+ is strong enough to pass.

[bearmum]

1NT -- dbl -- pass* --  ??pass

 

Assume the dbl showing open value.

 

Range of 1NT is 12-15, if it matters.

 

Edit: as MickyB pointed out, 'open value' shall be real, not a soso 11+ hcp hand. But isn't 15+ seems too much? I play 13+, in case the opps won't easily steal.

 

BTW, the pass* here usually forcing to redbl (safe landing), but for this post, let's say it's non-forcing.

 

 

OK the way my P and I play 1NTX --- is 15+ with a hand that could be opened 1NT (it COULD be 18+ though) and we play "systems on" (ie if 1NTX gets passed to me I respond as thought P had OPENED 1NT)

 

SO to answer the question I would REALLY have to see what my hand was -- also the vulnerability :(

 

But in general I would ONLY pass 1NTX with a hand with 9 points and flat dist ONLY IF opps were VUL v non vul because THEN the penalty should be better than we getting game

[Chamaco]

Kaplan suggests that pass is best response to pard's double with virtually any balanced hand: he states that most often, allowing opps to score 1NT X (hopefully not too many overtricks) is the least of evil compared to running and be doubled.

 

of course, if they pull out the blue card, it gets tough...

[Robert]

Hello bearmum

 

You only pass with flat 9+ opposite a penalty double when they are vulnerable vs non vulnerable?

 

If you can make 3NT at both non vulnerable, they are three down for -500 which beats a non vul. game score.

 

If you 'only' make eight tricks, you are still +300 and would have gone down in 3NT.

 

If the vulnerable conditions are game all, down three is +800 and beats your plus 600 score for making 3NT. The only making eight tricks example still also works here.

 

 

Hello Chamaco

 

I tend to follow Edgar Kaplans adivice on passing with most hands. Partner has 'at least' 'X" number of points and could well have more.

 

Their blue card might backfire 'if' partner has seven cashing tricks.

Ax Axx KQJ10xx Axx is eight winners since you do have the first lead.

Even Ax xxx KQJ10xx Ax should produce seven winners :(

 

When I generated hands for this auction, one 18 HCP double found zero HCP opposite and they could make 2NT

 

The down two and down three hand results were often the doubles with AQJ10x(x) type suits and 13+ HCP. That is my current standard holding 'unless' I hold 15+HCP balanced.

 

Regards,

Robert

[adhoc3]

a. suggest lighter action (say a *good* 13) in the direct seat, to avoid being stolen

b. keep direct seat quite sound (say 15+), but give up on the 13-13/12 games.

 

The loss of not dbl with 13+ also includes many part scores.

 

1NT---pass---2x*---?? or 1NT---pass---2x*---pass-||-pass---pass---?? *to play

 

With 12-13 hcp and no sound suit, it's hard to judge whether balance or not.

[han]

I also prefer to play it like Adam, double is 15+ and try to pass as partner (an ace is certainly enough).

[awm]

The loss of not dbl with 13+ also includes many part scores.

 

1NT---pass---2x*---?? or 1NT---pass---2x*---pass-||-pass---pass---?? *to play

 

With 12-13 hcp and no sound suit, it's hard to judge whether balance or not.

This is not a particularly difficult situation. In fact it is very similar to the auction 2x (preempt) followed by two passes. I'll balance if I have a doubleton in x, or a decent five card suit I can bid at the two-level. Otherwise pass.

 

Note that partner is in a pretty good position here too. He knows that: (1) opponents don't have game values, since RHO is signing off (2) partner doesn't have 15+, and doesn't have an opening hand unless he's fairly balanced. Partner can easily pre-balance with a double or a bid.

 

Sure in principle you might miss something if the opponents have found a suit where we both have length, and the values happen to be evenly divided. But this is the same as when opponents open a preempt -- it doesn't happen all that often, the opponents usually go down a bunch, and fairly often our game wasn't playing all that well anyway because suits aren't breaking so well for us and we have somewhat mirror shapes.

[Chamaco]

The loss of not dbl with 13+ also includes many part scores.

 

1NT---pass---2x*---??  or 1NT---pass---2x*---pass-||-pass---pass---??    *to play

 

With 12-13 hcp and no sound suit, it's hard to judge whether balance or not.

This is not a particularly difficult situation. In fact it is very similar to the auction 2x (preempt) followed by two passes. I'll balance if I have a doubleton in x, or a decent five card suit I can bid at the two-level. Otherwise pass.

 

Note that partner is in a pretty good position here too. He knows that: (1) opponents don't have game values, since RHO is signing off (2) partner doesn't have 15+, and doesn't have an opening hand unless he's fairly balanced. Partner can easily pre-balance with a double or a bid.

 

Sure in principle you might miss something if the opponents have found a suit where we both have length, and the values happen to be evenly divided. But this is the same as when opponents open a preempt -- it doesn't happen all that often, the opponents usually go down a bunch, and fairly often our game wasn't playing all that well anyway because suits aren't breaking so well for us and we have somewhat mirror shapes.

 

Adam ,

I agree with you that this specific kind of auction seems to pose no threats in terms ol losing *GAMES*.

 

In fact, as you point out, in those cases, the distribution in not very favourable.

 

However, don't you think that the *partscore* battle is hard ?

Especially at MP, and when they are white, letting them play an undoubled partscore is often undesirable, no ?

 

In those cases, even in a 5-2 fit, I have found that many times playing undoubled Nonvuln, is odds on for a good Matchpoint result for the weak notrumper, because at this lower level, the fact that shape is not favourable is often less relevant than for a game contract.

[awm]

Adam ,

I agree with you that this specific kind of auction seems to pose no threats in terms ol losing *GAMES*.

 

In fact, as you point out, in those cases, the distribution in not very favourable.

 

However, don't you think that the *partscore* battle is hard ?

Especially at MP, and when they are white, letting them play an undoubled partscore is often undesirable, no ?

 

In those cases, even in a 5-2 fit, I have found that many times playing undoubled Nonvuln, is odds on for a good Matchpoint result for the weak notrumper, because at this lower level, the fact that shape is not favourable is often less relevant than for a game contract.

There's a pretty high likelihood that the situation would be the same if opponents had opened in a minor. Sure it's possible we could double 1-minor with 12-14 hcp, but this requires the right distribution. By far the majority of balanced 12-14 hcp hands with no 5-card suit are passing over 1-minor anyway. Now opener's partner bids 1x.... advancer has no five card suit that can be bid at the one-level and less than opening values, as well as holding 3 cards in suit x, so he's got no call either. Opener rebids 1NT, and at this point responder is still unlimited so randomly doubling just because of holding an "opening hand" is suicide... it's the same auction really.

 

There are plenty of wins against weak notrump when they miss a major suit fit that the field is finding, or when they get doubled and go for a number opposite no game. When the weak notrumpers are vulnerable, add some random -200s in undoubled "wrong partscores" to the mix. Yes, occasionally the weak notrump can "steal" something when cards and high card points are perfectly evenly divided among the opponents, but you have to accept this.

 

If you ask most people who play weak notrump regularly, they will tell you that the biggest wins come from people who don't know how to defend the weak notrump, and double in too aggressively (and then get nailed) or overcall on junk (and then partner plays them for values).

 

While I don't consider myself a LOTT fanatic, I don't feel particularly compelled to compete to the three-level on 8-card fits over 7-card fits. Sometimes this will work out, but often it doesn't. Usually on "partscore deals" a plus score is a reasonable result, and I'd rather go plus defending than go minus declaring.

[Chamaco]

There's a pretty high likelihood that the situation would be the same if opponents had opened in a minor. Sure it's possible we could double 1-minor with 12-14 hcp, but this requires the right distribution.

Yes but when you do pass 1m with a bad offshape opener, you are pretty sure that -if it's our hand and oard has an awkward hand (e.g. unsuited for a double or overcall), he can balance with 1NT even without a full opener to protext our side if we have passed with a good hand, and we'll get to bid again.

 

The availability of the balancing 1NT vs 1m opener is not a detail, is fundamental and radically changes the odds compared to when opps open 1NT

 

When opps open 1NT, if pard is in the balancing seat without a suit to bid, he'll be under considerable pressure (balancing double with a balanced 10/12 can lead to bigtime trouble) , and this will lead to many partscore losses: the same would not happen after 1m openers.

[mycroft]

As a weak NTer in the land of Strong, I agree with awm. My worst results were 1NT= vs 2M= for the field, and my best results were when the opponents came in and were wrong (our scramble system included penalty doubles and redoubles).

 

The weak NT *will win* on some hands, because it right-sides the contract (sometimes), it gives away less information (sometimes), you can't make any more in a suit (sometimes), it preempts the 1M overcalls (frequently), and when it's a trap for the opponents (no matter how careful you are, this happens sometimes, and can be devastating). Oh, and opening 1m on "real suit or 15" wins frequently (and loses sometimes, see Fred's comments elsewhere). Sometimes you're gonna get fixed, no matter what you do.

 

But so many weak NTers have a "Oh, god, we're going for our life" philosophy about their rescues, and put together a huge formulation to get out as cheaply as possible. Fine and good, but going too far on that (and I believe most "pass forces redouble" systems go too far, because they get two chances to determine whether to play or bail) cuts down drastically on the offensive power of the weak NT. It doesn't matter how rare it comes in, hearing 1NT-X-XX-"what is it?" "Penalty" will rattle most of the yarborough-holding fourth-in-hands for the rest of the match. You can see it in their faces.

 

I want to minimize the number of times I'm that fourth-in-hand, so I keep my doubles of weak nts up to scratch.

 

Michael.

[adhoc3]

This is not a particularly difficult situation. In fact it is very similar to the auction 2x (preempt) followed by two passes. ...............

Is it really similar situation?

1)

2x--pass--pass*, the opener has 6-8 hcps, 32-34 hcp not seen

1NT--pass--2x*, the opener has 12-15 hcps, 25-28 hcp not seen

2)

2x--pass--pass*, the opener has 6 cards in his suit, including honors

1NT--pass--2x*, the opener could have nothing but 5 cards

 

The responder will either bid 2x(or via trans) with Txxxx xxx x xxxx, or KQJxx Qxx xxx xx opposites pd's 1NT opening. Don't you think there's higher risk to make a balance?

[Robert]

Hello everyone

 

I played a weak NT for several decades. You are taking your life in your hands to double a weak NT in direct and the risk does not go down very much(if at all) in 4th seat.

 

KS methods include 'smoothly' passing 11 HCP opposite a 12-14HCP opener. At IMPs I bid with 11HCP, but I do pass with 10HCP.

 

My weak NT experience involved a lot of penalty doubles and I had to learn better defense to 'back up' my partnership style of often doubling intervention.

 

Chip Martel and Lew Stansby have represented America at the higherst levels for years playing a

12-14HCP 1NT.

 

Regards,

Robert

[Gerben42]

Hmm now this thread has sort of transformed it seems. I really like the weak NT, but I think you need to be the type of player for it. If you don't like all this mudfighting with doubles and redoubles and penalties and such, it's not for you.

 

Does it work? The pair currently holding the World MP Championship, the Bermuda Bowl and the Olympiad title at the same time also play a weak NT and open it on anything remotely similar to a balanced hand. Ask them :)

[pigpenz]

having played weak NT 10-13 for 25yrs what i usually see is people bidding when they should double and doubling when they should bid...sitting for a double of 1NT is like sitting for a double of 2minor....-180 if wrong unless overtricks involved. So for me point count is irrelevant when sitting for a double of 1NT. Distribution is more important for instance the longer the suit and the weaker you are then you should bid.

[Guest Jlall]

I would sit with a good 4 count. Definitely with 5.

[Fluffy]

My rule isdouble shows more strneght than opener. So if the open was 10-12, ,then I would have 13+. And then 8 would be enough. 12-15.. then 6 would be enough as well, but not unbalanced, partner has an awful tendency of leading my singleton and it often stinks.