arrows Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 [hv=d=w&v=e&s=saq975hkq73dak6c9]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] W-----------N-----------E-----------SP------------P(1)--------P-----------1♣(2)p------------1♥(3)------P-----------2N(4)P------------3♣(5)------P-----------3♦(6)P------------3N(7)-------P-----------? (1) You play 10-12 mini-NT open when white(2) precision 16HCP+(can be less with distribution)(3) natural positive, 4+ ♥, 8+ HCP(4) artificial, 4+ ♥ support and unspecified singlton/void.(5) ask(6) ♣ short(7) Serious 3NT, showing further interest. If with the following additional agreement in the context:Over 3♦, North may:1. bid 3♥ showing 5+ hearts2. bid 3♠ showing A/K in spades3. bid 4♣ showing all values are outside clubs What do you bid if you were South? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 (edited) <misread auction, shouldn't post at night> Peter Edited December 4, 2005 by pbleighton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
000002 Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 yes i am an expert player:) 6♥directly,6NT maybe but can ignore it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 4NT (RKC) or 6H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Arrows - why do you play a system where the 1♣ responder is in charge of the auction? I don't think I've ever seen a Precision-based system where Opener answers asking bids (except where Opener rebids NT). That seems to be a root cause of the problem here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrows Posted December 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 not talking about system, just follow the agreement carefully, :( if no problem, I don't have to ask around :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 4N RKC. No need to beat around the bush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Does the serious 3NT bid deny 5+♥ and ♠K? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 The only reason pard has to suggest a slam on an 8-9 points hand with no club wastage is something like KxxAJxxxxxxxx despite him having denied this hand, I'm playing him for it because otherwise his bidding would be inconsistent. 6♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Arrows - why do you play a system where the 1♣ responder is in charge of the auction? I don't think I've ever seen a Precision-based system where Opener answers asking bids (except where Opener rebids NT). That seems to be a root cause of the problem here. That's not the key problem. Playing relays with semipositive responses, opener can also show his entire hand, no problems at all. The problem is you get too high without enough distributional information... Anywaaaaaaaaaay, I don't know if p denied 5♥ or ♠K, but with what kind of hand can he have serious slam interest without ♠K??? I'd bid 4♦ or 4NT, depending if it's still possible to have such kind of hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Hi, 4NT no expert here, but given your agreements,partner must hold the Ace of clubs and only4 hearts, else should have bid 3H to show the 5 card suit and because of 3NT, else he could have bid 4C, with the King of clubs he should bid 4H. 3NT should say, I am maximum, I willing to marchon, but nothing more, responder does not know I am super maximum. Marlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 I don't see how 4♦ can complicate our bidding, so I'll ust bid it. Chances on 7 are very slim, yet it could be our day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbreath Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 hiI dont see where we going here .. p has apparently denied a top spade card and a 5+ H suit .. how many times am i supposed to bid this hand? .. 4H for me rgds Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalvan14 Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 I assume that partner migh have a hand like x AJxxx QJxxx xx, or even x Axxxx Qxxxx Ax (which would make eminenly sense for a serious 3N).I would bid 4N (RKC). If pard has 1 key-card, bid 6♥; if he has 2 KC, 7♥ might be there. Check if the spades have a 2nd round control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrows Posted December 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 if you knew partner couldn't have 5 hearts and spade king, and couldn't be 10+ HCP balanced hand, because of North's first pass, Do you think South's hand worth another try over partner's serious 3NT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrows Posted December 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 for example, following the agreement, North probably having heart ace fourth and ace empty of clubs, and maybe a Jack somewhere.... and maybe some shape... Do you think south's hand worth another try over serious 3NT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcLight Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 With 4-4 in hearts, opps may be 4-1 and there is a chance of a trump loser, Jxxx is not that unlikely.Also, even with 3-2, you may not be able to ruff a suit good, or ruff out all losers. With the 3NT bid, I'll assume pard has the Ace of Hearts. Axxx in Clubs sounds plausible. I assume pard wouldn't make the slam try with KQJx in clubs opposite a stiff. Whats pard short in, Diamonds? Can he ruff the 3rd round? Then what about Spades? You will have 1-2 losers (depending on the finesse) with a 5-3 fit with no fillers. If he's short in Spades, then either you ruff Clubs or he ruff Spades. I dont think there are enough trump, you need 1 more. Slam can make, but I think it requires good suit breaks and a finesse.I guess its a tad under 50%, so I'll sign off in 4 Hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Hello everyone That auction really puzzled me. Would you mind posting partner's hand, so I can see why my doubts are so unwarrented? Jumping to 2NT with this hand(while not showing AQ9xx of spades, the main feature of this hand) feels wrong and wasted a lot of bidding room. The 3C ask and 3D answer look like solid methods, but a passed hand serious 3NT* bid here seems to be throwing away even more bidding room. Surely you cannot want to stop in 3Hs, so 3D-3H would 'show' slam interest and leave room for a 3S cuebid or for partner(the 1C opener) to bid a serious 3NT* now. I like to use LT(last train) in many more auctions than I ever use RKC. I could just barely see a LT bid(4D*) in this auction rather than that serious 3NT* bid by a passed hand(?) Did partner really forget to open the bidding? I cannot belive that you would not cuebid 4Ds over a serious 3NT* bid by partner. The fact that partner choose to bid this way and not allow me to show my Spade Ace(3D-3H-3S*-3NT-4D*) 'and' my Diamond Ace just causes me to wonder what is going on? Regards, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Hello kalvan14 Your example hands for a serious 3NT* bid leave me very puzzled.x Axxxx QJxxx xx and x Axxxx Qxxxx Ax The first hand has two controls and seven losers 'without' a source of tricks 'that' bid a 'serious' 3NT* slam try? opposite a possible AKQxx KQxx xxx A ? How can partner not 'cue' his club Ace and follow up by bidding his spade Ace 'after' your serious 3NT* bid? The auction screams for a diamond lead and a diamond ruff is a not unlikely prospect after the 4S cuebid forces you to the five level. The second example could cuebid the club Ace, but what possible reason would it have to bid a serious 3NT instead of 4Cs*. RKC by opener without any idea of what partner 'holds' is telling partner that you can better judge the 'fit' of the two hands than he can 'while looking' at his hand. If RKC was right, partner should have bid it. He could find out about your AK of diamonds(you did use a 'specific king' showing bidding method after RKC on another thread) and 'see' a source of tricks 'looking at' Qxxxx(QJxxx) of diamonds. Your RKC ask does not 'show' the AK of diamonds and certainly does not ask partner for the Qxxxx(or QJxxx) of diamonds. If partner holds the cards for seven, he might be able to tell after cuebidding or RKC, however, you are very unlikely to do more than guess 'after' you bid RKC. Regards, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalvan14 Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Robert,I did not post the bidding. It beats me how a passed hand might invoke a "serious 3N", and I tried to build up a couple of hands which might be both passed hands, and willing to make a serious (?!) slam try.When I was playing precision (and even more so when I was playing Neapolitan Club), responder might take the lead more or less each leap year :rolleyes: , and certainly not if he was a passed hand. Maybe times are changed. Is there a real hand which might bid a serious 3N? And refuse to cue-bid spades?(IMO, you are right: opener should not put away his spade suit; another strange feature of this hand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 It beats me how a passed hand might invoke a "serious 3N" Well, that's not strange at all. It's actually very good bidding :( A serious 3NT doesn't need to show 13 points or so, only that bidder has a hand that, given what he already showed, is fit for a slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Some coments: 1. I agree with other posters who comented that it's weird to see a passed hand responder to the strong club taking charge and being the one who asks shape and the like 2. However, I do not think that the use of serious 3NT by passed hand is competely out of place.It might be used to show a max or minimum hand. After opener has shown club shortness, I would expect x-Axxx-Qxxx-Axxx or Qx-Axxx-xxx-Axxx These hands seem to offer good slam chances, so the simple use of RKCB should give the appropriate info. Please note that I do NOT expect pard to bid a serious NT (consuming a full 3 level), if he has an indifferent 10 count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalvan14 Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 I'm quite convince that passed hand needs both aces for going forward to a slam try; I fail to understand why 3N should be better than cue-bidding 3♠ or 4♣. Additionally, a 4-4 in trumps would be a bit light for a hand which needs ruffing a few clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 I fail to understand why 3N should be better than cue-bidding 3♠ or 4♣. Being a passed hand, there is obviously some redundancy in your bids, since 3♠, 4♣ and 3NT overlap considerably. Therefore choosing which bid to pick becomes more a matter of feeling than of technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 What are the distributional limits to the mini-NT ?Partner may have a void and 10HCP or some other distribution that does not fit NT and is to weak to open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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