Your bid

[Wiste1]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=shajxxxxdajxxxcjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Opps pass all the time, 1♠-2♥-3♣- what now ?

[P_Marlowe]

3D.

 

The alternative would be 3H.

 

Of course a lot depends on the

meaning of 3C, how "weak" can it

be.

 

Marlowe

[pbleighton]

3D. If Pd has 2 hearts, he should bid 3H.

 

Peter

[mike777]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=shajxxxxdajxxxcjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Opps pass all the time, 1♠-2♥-3♣- what now ?

Assuming the opp are passing, I object to 2H if playing 2/1.

 

Prefer 1nt ..now over 2clubs rebid by partner I can bid BART.....3H=invite with 6 hearts.

[ochinko]

3H from me. I can't bid 3D because that would ask partner to bid 3NT with a diamond stopper. Since I stop the diamonds, 3D is meaningless.

 

Is partner bids 3S now, I'll go to 3NT.

[hrothgar]

be nice to know whether 2♥ established a game force

[Guest Jlall]

3D...Assuming this is 2/1 I do not play this as artificial (there is a case for it). I'm glad I don't.

[mikeh]

3♦: even if not playing 2/1 gf, the normal meaning of 3♣ is extra values (there are two schools of thought in 2/1: the one I support says this is extra values anyway). Playing non 2/1, 3♣ on a minimum misfit hand makes zero sense. So 3♦: natural, what else is there? 3N is just plain wrong.

[Wiste1]

System was SAYC, with a pick-up partner.

I normally bid 3♦with these cards but was afraid of a big misfit and too mess up the bidding, so i bid what i thought was the right contract: 3NT.

I dont mean that 3♦ is wrong, but is 3nt so bad ?

Playing 2/1 GF i would allways bid3♦

[P_Marlowe]

System was SAYC, with a pick-up partner.

I normally bid 3♦with these cards but was afraid of a big misfit and too mess up the bidding, so i bid what i thought was the right contract: 3NT.

I dont mean that 3♦ is wrong, but is 3nt so bad ?

Playing 2/1 GF i would allways bid3♦

Hi,

 

playing with a pickup partner, 3NT has is merits,

you dont know how your partner treats 3D (art. and forcing

for me), but reading the posts, you see, there are people

around, who are playing better than me, who play 3D as

natural and forcing.

The same holds true for 3H, you dont know, if your partner

treats this as forcing.

 

With a regular partner, you should look for the heart fit.

 

Marlowe

[Robert]

Hello everyone

 

Would one to the 'natural' 3D bidders please bid this same auction holding

 

xx AJxxx xxx AJx 1S-2H-3C-?

 

Do you still bid a 'what else is there?' 3Ds 'natural' while holding this hand?

 

When partner raises your 'natural bid', you can play the 4-3 fit taking heart ruffs with the four card holding. I hope that your methods include the game forcing, 'but can stop in four of minor' since plowing upwards to 5Ds on a 'known' weak 4-3 fit seems very poor. :P

 

I do play the 4th suit force method unless the xyz convention replaces it.

 

The methods chosen are SAYC so unless partner 'does not know how to bid', that 3C bid is a 'high reverse' showing GF type values opposite a minimum 2H bid. :P

 

Regards,

Robert

[bearmum]

Dealer: West Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ [space] ♥ AJxxxx ♦ AJxxx ♣ Jx

 

Opps pass all the time, 1♠-2♥-3♣- what now ?

OK Playing SAYC I assume that 3♦ would be a GAME FORCE??

 

I assume the 3♣ bid shows at LEAST 5/5 in suits

 

---So I bid 3♥ NF showing 6♥ WTP ?? :P

 

 

BUT as I understand playing 2/1 the 2♥ bid forces to game THEREFORE the 3♣ bid does not show ANY extra values ( assume 5/4 S/C) so MY bid would be 3♦ showing ♥ and ♦ HOWEVER playing 2/1 I WOULD NOT force to game bidding 2♥ -- rather I would bid 1NT (forcing) and wait for partner's rebid

[mikeh]

BUT as I understand playing 2/1 the 2♥ bid forces to game  THEREFORE the 3♣ bid does not show ANY extra values ( assume 5/4 S/C) so MY bid  would be 3♦ showing ♥ and ♦ 

2/1 players fall into 2 camps as to whether 3♣ here shows extra values. My understanding is that the great majority believe that 3♣ shows extras while the minority simply feel it shows shape. The reason the majority disagree is that the 3♣ bid can end=play a 15-17 count responder with no good fit. He will often have to bid 3N or make a temporizing bid and hear opener bid 3N. Both players could be on 15-17 hcp, and neither be able to make a move beyond 3N due to a lack of fit and uncertainty as to partner's strength. I am a strong believer in the majority view.

 

As for the posted problem, in SAYC, 3♣ definitely shows extras: it is a fundamental error to play any other way. So with this hand, i continue to bid my shape. With xx AJxxx xxx AJx as one poster posited: this is an illustration of why so many players do not play SAYC. Frankly, I would not have the problem, since I do not play the method, but if I did, I would have bid 1N last time, not 2♥. If I had to make the bid (Give me xx AQJxx xx AJx) I agree that I would bid 3♦. This is not a contradiction: there is no hand with which partner can raise me beyond 3N and have bid 3♣. I am not bidding 3♦ on the posted hand in an effort to play in ♦. I am keeping the auction alive because I do not know enough to place the contract. I would love to hear 3♥. I will bid a reluctant 3N over 3♠, and I will pass 3N should partner bid it.

[Robert]

Hello bearmum

 

SAYC methods if played according 'book' methods only allow partner to bid 3C

(defined as a 'high reverse') as game forcing. Any bid above 3C would allow for the GF values that opener has already shown.

 

No, 3C only shows 5Ss and 4Cs with GF values to bid to the 3 level opposite a new suit two level bid by a SAYC partner. If partner has 5C, he does not show them with a 3C bid.

 

Your 3H bid here would be forcing, since you were already in a GF auction when your partner bid 3Cs.

 

In 'some' 2/1 methods the 3C bid can be a threadbare opening. My GF 2/1 Big Club methods still require some additional values to bid 3Cs because you are using up a lot of bidding space 'without' limiting your hand in any way.

 

I learned 4th suit forcing almost 40 years ago, so I play that method whatever system I am playing. Classic bidding methods 'properly used' are very nearly as good as the best modern methods.

 

Hello mikeh

 

Playing good classic bidding methods(SAYC should be played this way) There are two hand types that will bid above 3NT. 1S-2H-3C-3D-4H shows a 4 card heart raise with shortness in diamonds. 5413 being the most common shape for that auction.

 

If the pattern is 5314 opener will bid 1S-2H-3C and support hearts 'without' a jump to show 3 card support.

 

It is not completely clear with the 1S-2H-3C-3D-3H auction since responder did 'muddy the waters' somehwhat with the 3D(4th suit forcing bid) Opener might be making a 3H call over 3D holding Hx.

 

If you now bid 3NT, openers 4H 'correction' with now clearly show 5314 or equivalent. 5305

 

Splinter bids are nothing new under the sun, the good players of years gone by could paint a picture of their hand and also show 'shortness.'

 

Regards,

Robert

[mikeh]

Hello mikeh

 

Playing good classic bidding methods(SAYC should be played this way) There are two hand types that will bid above 3NT.  1S-2H-3C-3D-4H shows a 4 card heart raise with shortness in diamonds.  5413 being the most common shape for that auction.

 

If the pattern is 5314 opener will bid 1S-2H-3C and support hearts 'without' a jump to show 3 card support. 

 

Regards,

Robert

Robert, two points:

 

My reference to partner not raising beyond 3N was with respect to ♦.

 

Secondly, few (if any) experts would fail to raise 2♥ immediately with 4 card support.

 

That might not have been true many years ago, but I have not seen this sort of delayed description in expert use in decades.

 

I accept some hands might warrant bidding 3♣ on 5=3=1=4 and certainly on 5=3=0=5. However, raising is mandatory on 4 card support, whether that be by way of a splinter, a jump or a mere 3♥ depends on hand type and partnership agreement.

 

Finally and not in response to the quoted part of your answer, 3♦ is NOT fourth suit forcing if 3♣ established a gf, as it does in standard (nor, of course, is there any place for FSF in a 2/1 gf sequence of 1♠ - 2♥). It may be a 'mark time' bid (a term coined by Alvin Roth many years ago) but it is NOT FSF. FSF is a device used to notify partner that the partnership is in a gf sequence: it is unnecessary once game is already forced. I have seen this misdescription by many players over the years :rolleyes:

[Kalvan14]

3♣ establishes a GF situation in SAYC. In 2/1, the GF situation was established by 2♥; however, I'm of the school which requires extra values to bid a new suit at 3-level (by converse, 1♥-2♦-2♠ might still be a minimum).

 

3♦ is (and has to be) a waiting bid, artificial: there are not so many bids available at this stage (and 3♥ would show a better suit). Call it FSF or MTB does not change the meaning: a rose by another name....

 

I would be happy with 3♥, I would accept 3N, and over 3♠ I'd have to bid 3N, without a lot of joy.

 

The real problem is pard bidding 4♣: in such a case, I expect you have to pass.

A total misfit, where yr best fit is 7 cards.

 

There are a couple of cases where pard can go higher than 3N, besides 4♣: 4♦, with 5-0-4-4 (and this would be no problem); 4♥: 5-4-2-2, with 17-18 HCP (in SAYC; in 2/1 you can always raise hearts in a GF situation); 4♠, with 6 good spades and 4 clubs (this might be a problem, but nothing to do).

 

Btw, playing 2/1 I agree that 1N (forcing) would be the best bid (the intermediates in both red suits suck). OTOH, I'd like to know how many players would refrain from opening S hand

[Fluffy]

3♦ regardless of what you think it means, willrebid 3NT probably.

[Robert]

Hello mikeh

 

You made many good points. We are both are in the 'high reverse'(new suit at the three level) shows extra values camp.

 

I did have two question, what would you have opener bid holding

AKJxx void Jxxx KQxx after 1S-2H-3C-3D ?

 

Doesn't Bridge World have super experts bidding 'around the clock' in their reports/bidding contests? I am not anywhere near being at the WC level, however, I have been bidding 'around the clock' for many decades now.

 

Concentrated values should bid around the clock and minimum 'spread out' values can splinter. Partner often has a much better idea of what I hold by my choice of bids. Axxxx Kxxx x AQx and AKxxx Axxx x Axx I bid differently and partner 'knows' what to expect for splinters and my 'around the clock' bids :rolleyes:

 

Hello kalvan14

 

Apparently some(many) people(including a local WC player) plays 3D bid as natural here. :)

 

I do not pass forcing bids. What do you tell partner after you pass a forcing 4C bid? I do not know what will happen, however, if partner meant his bid as forcing, I keep bidding.

 

I have on a number of occasions raised partner to game/slam holding a void in his suit 'because' he made forcing bids. Partner's hands often justified my 'raises.'

 

Regards,

Robert

[Kalvan14]

sorry, Robert. i am not putting my head in a trap just for the fun of it.

If I judge that the situation warrants it (like this case, if I find a black 5-5 against a red 6-5) there is no shame in playing 4♣.

You are obviously free to raise your partner with a void. In particular if you play against me :(

[mikeh]

Hello mikeh

 

You made many good points.  We are both are in the 'high reverse'(new suit at the three level) shows extra values camp.

 

I did have two question, what would you have opener bid holding

AKJxx void Jxxx  KQxx  after 1S-2H-3C-3D ?

 

Doesn't Bridge World have super experts bidding 'around the clock' in their reports/bidding contests?  I am not anywhere near being at the WC level, however, I have been bidding 'around the clock' for many decades now. 

 

Concentrated values should bid around the clock and minimum 'spread out' values can splinter.  Partner often has a much better idea of what I hold by my choice of bids.  Axxxx  Kxxx  x  AQx and AKxxx  Axxx  x  Axx  I bid differently and partner 'knows' what to expect for splinters and my 'around the clock' bids  :(

 

Well, by BBO definitions, I am WC... altho I am not waiting by the phone for the BW to call upon me to participate in Challenge the Champs or the MSC :(

 

With the hand you gave me, (AKJxx void Jxxx KQxx) I rebid 2♠ not 3♣ so your question makes no sense. Make my hand significantly stronger and I rebid 3♦, not 3♣, so your premise makes no sense.

 

As for bidding around the clock, count me out. Now, admittedly, I use a 2/1 approach: but I do not see any experts concealing primary support these days. Years ago, when even good players often had substantial gaps in their systems, they had to manufacture distorted sequences. One reason for the 2/1 gf and the BWS 2/1 near gf approaches was the ability to clarify auctions. Thus 1♠ 2♥ 3♥ becomes forcing. This allowed the raise to 4♥ to become either a minimum or a picture bid, depending on preference etc.