What is your approach?

[han]

It is not a contradiction, it was exactly my point that I'm unlikely to bid 4H in this auction. An example hand might be x KQ10xxx x Qxxxx, good hearts, very distributional, just short of an opening bid.

 

I agree with you that splinters should be generally be descriptive because they take up so much room. On the other hand, a splinter is often *the* best way to let partner evaluate his hand for slam purposes.

 

However, your arguments don't hold for the hand in question. Here we DO want to take up as much room as possible. And 4S is quite descriptive, it shows a VOID and huge club support. Certainly more descriptive than 4H, and also slightly more preemptive.

[Al_U_Card]

As a passed hand, you can do a lot of interesting things, like take your time and bid strongly so that pard knows that you have a distributional grab-bag. Even if you choose to make a neg. dbl. then bid clubs at the 5 level, pard will understand your shape. So they may bid 4S or 5S or 6S, what about the majority of hands where only a part-score is up for grabs?

 

I gather that inverted minors are off by a passed hand (or in comp) but denying the H suit seems counterproductive when pard will appreciate knowing about the double fit should he hold hearts. Make the negative double and if pard doesn't have 4H cards you may get the suit in again at a higher level but at least it will be clear that it is a suit......

[Walddk]

Interesting discussion. Now, let's move on to ......

 

Part 2:

 

Nice to see that none of you went for the option the Scottish lady in question found at the table: 2♠, a high card raise with club support. The more I look at it, the more I dislike it.

 

However, I force you to bid 2♠ (you are playing in the Scottish women's trials remember), and then the auction proceeds:

 

3♠ by LHO, 3NT from partner and a loud double to your right. Now what? You brought yourself into this mess, remember. How to get out of it in a graceful way? Your country is relying on you! ;)

 

Roland

[cherdano]

Roland, why can't you report such a hand without this implied chauvinism?

[Walddk]

Roland, why can't you report such a hand without this implied chauvinism?

???? Must be your imagination. Nothing, absolutely nothing intentional here. West is a fine player! If you get offended on behalf of the women, I recommend that you don't read the posts.

 

Roland

[mikeh]

Hmmm, how to get out gracefully?

 

I fold my cards and place them, face down, on the table. I turn to my screenmate and politely announce that I believe that I have been taken ill, and would she mind if I leave now.

 

Unfortunately, I doubt that this tactic would work. So I have to revert to making a call.

 

The strong, loud redouble is not at the top of the list and I am going to reject that on the basis that we probably can't make 3N redoubled.

 

Edit: I made a silly comment here originally, and then realized that I have made a number of bids that, on reflection, were absurd, and no player in a teams trial deserves my comment. I remain of the view that 2♠ was poor and that, if I had made the call (which on bad day I might have) I would be feeling ill when the auction got back to me.

 

If I were brought in as an emergency replacement (South having understandably wanting to leave and her screenmate unexpectedly agreeing), I would bid 5♣. 4♠ no longer looks safe, for two reasons: partner has wasted values in that suit and I have overstated my hcp strength with my 2♠ - 4♠ sequence.

 

I guess there is going to be a Part 3, based on slow action here (or slow action by partner over whatever I inflict on her this turn). I await developments with interest.

 

BTW, in a strange way, my weird 2♠ bid may be working out: I avoided the expected 4♠ call and now partner's 3N may scare them off.

[cherdano]

Roland, why can't you report such a hand without this implied chauvinism?

???? Must be your imagination. Nothing, absolutely nothing intentional here. West is a fine player! If you get offended on behalf of the women, I recommend that you don't read the posts.

 

Roland

Wel, sorry if I misunderstood you, but that's how your sentence "However, I force you to bid 2? (you are playing in the Scottish women's trials remember)" can be misunderstood.

 

Btw, I don't see detesting chauvinism as getting offended on behalf of someone else, I just find it highly disagreeable myself.

[Walddk]

Wel, sorry if I misunderstood you, but that's how your sentence "However, I force you to bid 2? (you are playing in the Scottish women's trials remember)" can be misunderstood.

Yes, I force you to bid 2♠ whether you like it or not, because otherwise there would have been no known continuation. You might have guessed that we haven't reached the climax yet (sorry in advance if "climax" also is chauvinistic in your world).

 

Roland

[mike777]

Interesting discussion. Now, let's move on to ......

 

Part 2:

 

Nice to see that none of you went for the option the Scottish lady in question found at the table: 2♠, a high card raise with club support. The more I look at it, the more I dislike it.

 

However, I force you to bid 2♠ (you are playing in the Scottish women's trials remember), and then the auction proceeds:

 

3♠ by LHO, 3NT from partner and a loud double to your right. Now what? You brought yourself into this mess, remember. How to get out of it in a graceful way? Your country is relying on you!  ;)

 

Roland

5 clubs seems clear now, yes? Partner must read me for some void in spades with long clubs but no cuebid/rkc so on the way to slam interest?

 

Can we make a case for 6 club bid in commitee?

 

BTW1 lets try blindly using LTC: my hand is 4.5 loser in support of clubs (5.5-1)?

That gives us 24-7-4.5=12.5 tricks?

 

BTW2 lets try FTL: 13-1-0=12 tricks? 13=total tricks, minus 1 =combined two shortest suits, minus zero assumes 19 working hcp?

 

BTW3 Just heard last night they discovered the bones of giant 6 foot/550 lbs scorpion in Scotland so why not believe in a 6 club bid Mr/Ms. commitee person?

[hrothgar]

Roland, why can't you report such a hand without this implied chauvinism?

???? Must be your imagination. Nothing, absolutely nothing intentional here. West is a fine player! If you get offended on behalf of the women, I recommend that you don't read the posts.

 

Roland

Its not "just" Cherdano's imagination.

 

Maybe its one of those English as a second language issues, however, I find the tone of some of your posts sexist in nature.

 

It might seem strange for me to be commenting on "offensive" posts, however, my decisions to insult people are typically very deliberate. And I stand behind my insults...

[Chamaco]

Well let's say that I had a similar impression as Cherdano, especially after the posts on LOLs (little old ladies) in another thread, but sometimes the written communication might be tricky, the message that gets across is sometimes.... a "misbid" ;)

[Al_U_Card]

As I said, take your time especially when outcome hangs in the balance.......now your problem is whether to suppress the H suit or not. 4C gets you to a part-score where 5 might make or be doubled, and make.......but 4H is too hard to read even if pard has said he has a H stopper..... so I vote (under the circumstances) for 4C.

[mikeh]

I think that I agree that Roland's wording was capable of being seen as chauvinistic, but have not we all written or spoken something, intending an inoffensive bit of humour, and had it come across not as we intended? Or am I alone in that? And I confine my mis-speaks to one language!

[han]

I too don't like the implication that we should expect such bad bids because this is a women's event (or a Scottish event, for that matter). Bad bids are made in any event, and even if the level of the Scottish women's trials is extremely low (I have no idea, and by what standards would one measure this anyway?), then there is still no reason to turn the event into a laughing stock.

 

 

But I find the hand interesting and I do want to hear the final part. So I am still going to answer to part 2.

 

 

Now that I've bid 2S I am not going to stay in 3NT, no matter what pauses or violent doubles the other three players made. I can imagine bidding 2S (yes, I have made bids worse than this) but I cannot ever imagine sitting in 3NT with this hand. I am 6-6 and partner has opened in one of my suits!

 

I think I would just bid 5C.

[han]

I think that I agree that Roland's wording was capable of being seen as chauvinistic, but have not we all written or spoken something, intending an inoffensive bit of humour, and had it come across not as we intended? Or am I alone in that? And I confine my mis-speaks to one language!

I absolutely agree with this.

[Al_U_Card]

Perhaps if you reverted to Danish, Roland, your meanings would become clearer (or incomprehensible for most of us, like the tack that this thread has taken...) I, for one, prefer to remain with the topic.....so what happened next?

[han]

One thing about the LOL (little old ladie). This seems to be a standard term among North American bridge players (and perhaps elsewhere too), and it is used both by men and women. I'm willing to concede that most uses of the word are not intended as sexist at all, and that the term is very convenient for describing a certain kind of bridge player. It is true that some men would also qualify as LOL's, but I have never heard it being used for a male bridge player.

 

There is something inherently sexist about the word, and it would be nice if we had a neutral alternative available.

[Guest Jlall]

I would have bid 5C directly and forced everyone to guess what's going on.

 

I certainly would not sit for 3N, and would pull to 5C.

[Winstonm]

I vote for LOP - Lil' Ol' Persons.

 

Back to the hand in question.

 

I suppose I could double the double, saying I think they are right and asking partner to pull...but somehow I don't think anyone would let me get away with this.

 

Partner heard opps bid and raise spades, yet was willing still to bid 3N - I'm not expecting a great wastage in spades. I think partner expects to make 9 tricks as long as I have long, decent clubs as my limit raise in clubs implied....where is the hole in his hand, though? Hearts or diamonds? Axxx, AK, x, KQxxxx or Axx, x, AKx, KQxxxx or the like or maybe even J10xx, A, AKx, QJxxx.

 

Perhaps the 6th club compensates for the lack of the heart King. Maybe 2S wasn't so crazy after all. Seems more likely that partner has weak hearts than diamonds.

 

I pass, loudly. If we make this they will never recover their composure in time to beat us.

 

Winston

[Walddk]

Part 3:

 

West pulled to 5♣ with no significant hesitation, and now this happened:

 

5♠ from LHO, double by partner and redouble to your right. You are in the spotlight again. What is your bid?

 

Roland

[hrothgar]

I vote for LOP - Lil' Ol' Persons.

Sigh. Little old People just doesn't sound the same...

 

Like "OMWH" (pronouced Omwah...)

 

For anyone who doesn't know, the "OMWH" is the most feared creature on the road...

 

Old

Man

With

Hat

[Guest Jlall]

Part 3:

 

West pulled to 5♣ with no significant hesitation, and now this happened:

 

5♠ from LHO, double by partner and redouble to your right. You are in the spotlight again. What is your bid?

 

Roland

This is not the "right" bid but I think it is practical to bid 6C. Partner is expecting us to have high cards, ie not negative defense. We are in a forcing pass, so partner's X just says "don't bid 6C." Meanwhile we have RHO viciously XXing. My "table feel" so to speak is that they are wrapping this one up. If they are not, I will owe partner quite a few apologies.

[pclayton]

2♠ is a master bid - intended as a strength showing psyche and hoping to slow the auction down for the table. Certainly the opponents hold the ranking suits (♦/♠) while we hold the inferior suits. Seeking to slow down the opponents is indeed a master stroke.

 

This Scottish lady shouldn't be condemned; she shouls be awarded a BOLS Brilliancy award for this intelligent tactical bidding!

 

Back to the 'problem'. I'm sure she thought through this scenario when she made the master 2♠ bid, so at the table she would have had the perfect call prepared, which is beyond the intelligence of the mortal posters on BBF and myself.

 

But I'll try.

 

Not gifted with her intelligence or foresight, I put the 4♠ card on the tray. I cannot have a strong hand, otherwise I would sit for 3N x'd. 4♠ by a passed hand suggests a distributional bomb unsuitable for 3N, but interested in bigger and better things.

 

(Sorry for the sarcasm here. :( - I can't resist with the way this thread is going).

[Winstonm]

Well, I've successfully cut down on the number of redoubled overtricks - I'm sure the auction was the same at the other table except they played 4S redoubled.

 

I pass and look forward to our pickup.

 

:(

 

Winston

[whereagles]

How on Earth am I supposed to choose any action if all my previous actions were totally against what I think I should have bid? :(

 

Anyway... one thing is clear - I'm calling in my insurance policy and pull this to 6♣. And if they bid 6♠ and pard doubles, I'll pull it out to SEVEN CLUBS :)