Who to blame (8)

[HeartA]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sk1086hqxxxdjxcajx&s=sjhakxdkqxxxckxxx]133|200|South opened 1♦ the bidding went:[/hv]

 

South - West - North - East

1♦ - 1♠ - 3NT - Pass

4♣ - pass - 4♥ - pass

4♠ - pass - 6♣ - all passes.

[han]

How about 1D-(1S)-3NT-all pass.

 

So south.

[pbleighton]

Although 3NT is a slight overbid - 2NT would have been better - 4C was atrocious - all the blame to South.

 

Peter

[cherdano]

Although 3NT is a slight overbid - 2NT would have been better - 4C was atrocious - all the blame to South.

 

Peter

Well, I think he gets some additional blame for 4♠ as well? I admit that cancels out against 6♣, which is hardly better.

 

Arend

[mike777]

Not sure of your methods here? What the heck was 3nt range? What does partner bid with 14-16/17 hcp and 4=3=3=3 shape or 4=2=3=4? OR a hand with 5clubs to the A?

 

I only bid 1nt with responder hand..yes, not even 2nt.

 

Given that I assume responder has aprox, 14-16 hcp I can understand 4clubs but could understand pass also.

 

Over 4clubs it seems 4nt is clear now in any case! What the heck was 4h except a cuebid? I would take it as Kickback for D since I got the AK of hearts it cannot be cuebid!

 

Unlike others I give it:

75% north.

25% south.

[Winstonm]

The blame goes to whatever these two were smoking that night......

[cherdano]

Not sure of your methods here? What the heck was 3nt range? What does partner bid with 14-16 hcp and 4=3=3=3 shape?

 

I only bid 1nt with responder hand..yes, not even 2nt.

 

Given that I assume responder has aprox, 14-16 hcp I can understand 4clubs but could understand pass also.

This point-counting about 3NT is a red herring. 3NT is a minimum game forcing hand that wants to make a very strong statement about strain. Typical holdings in spades would be KQx, KTxx, QT9x, well maybe also AQxx. What makes you think you can play slam opposite a minimum game force that will have a lot of points wasted opposite your singleton? Do you think you have 2.5 tricks extras?

 

If you really want points for 3NT, I would say it is 13-15 in theory, but will often be done with a well-positioned 12 count. That gives the partnership 30hcp at most, quite a few of them wasted opposite your shortness, and no big fit. Slam?

 

Arend

[mike777]

Well give partner:

AQx=QJx=Ax=QJTxx

 

but as I said South does get blame and can understand a pass of 3nt!

 

If your range is 11/12-17 hcp for 3nt that seems too wide..

Many may bid 2clubs F1 but then we may hear 3s/ on our left and 3nt may sound forced and not this strong?

 

Again I can understand a pass of 3nt but I think North deserves majority blame.

[awm]

I'll blame north here. The initial 3NT bid is pushy, but okay if you play fairly sound opening bids. The ♠T is potentially a big card, and the ♦J is likely useful as well.

 

South's 4♣ bid is pushy, but give north AQxx xxx xx AQxx and slam is not all that bad. North could even have a slightly better hand than that (say add the ♦J or ♥Q). I think these hands are 3NT bids.

 

The first really bad bid of the auction is 4♥. What was this supposed to be? It seems to me that north's options after 4♣ are: (1) preference to 4♦ to suggest a diamond slam (2) cuebid for a club slam (3) bid 4NT to deny all interest. On this hand, which is a dead minimum with slow cards in both majors and no significant fit for either minor, I think option (3) is clear.

 

I'm not sure what south is thinking with the 4♠ call, but who knows what south thinks is going on at this point after hearing a "balanced hand" cuebid 4♥ when south holds the AK. Perhaps south is cuebidding a stiff spade, but I really don't like this style when partner has shown spade cards.

 

North's 6♣ bid is beyond the pale. Still dead minimum, possibly no heart control (well okay, north lied at the previous bid about the heart control) and not even a real fit for clubs.

[cherdano]

Well give partner:

AQx=QJx=Ax=QJTxx

 

but as I said South does get blame and can understand a pass of 3nt!

 

If your range is 11/12-17 hcp for 3nt that seems too wide..

Many may bid 2clubs F1 but then we may hear 3s/ on our left and 3nt may sound forced and not this strong?

 

Again I can understand a pass of 3nt but I think North deserves majority blame.

I definitely won't bid 3NT with that hand. Who says I am playing 3NT as up to 17 points? I would start with 2♣ or double. Yes if the auction gets competitive, I may not be able to show my strength, but why give up with 3NT immediately?

 

Arend

[bearmum]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sk1086hqxxxdjxcajx&s=sjhakxdkqxxxckxxx]133|200|South opened 1♦ the bidding went:[/hv]

 

South - West - North - East

1♦ - 1♠ - 3NT  - Pass

4♣ - pass - 4♥ - pass

4♠ - pass - 6♣ - all passes.

First -- WHY did N bid 1♠ not 1♥ ?? (or am I yet again missing the obvious?)

 

BUT given the bidding WHY did S not PASS 3NT???

 

SO 90% blame to S after his partner's 1♠ bid :) :P

[kenrexford]

I would place most of the blame on that corporate entity known as the "partnership."

 

There is no agreed minor yet. Hence, 4H cannot be a cue in a good partnership. 4H is either RKCB for diamonds (Redwood) or RKCB for clubs (Flag RKCB). In either event, 4S would show three key cards, which is not held and which dooms the slam. I suspect some version of mess like this, for why else cuebid 4H with Qxxx? Was 4H natural? If so, that is silliness.

 

3NT was a tad rich, as well. But, it may be difficult to stop below 4NT anyway.

[Fluffy]

4♣ is an overbid, 4♠ is an even greater one.

[cherdano]

I would place most of the blame on that corporate entity known as the "partnership."

 

There is no agreed minor yet.  Hence, 4H cannot be a cue in a good partnership.  4H is either RKCB for diamonds (Redwood) or RKCB for clubs (Flag RKCB).

What?? In my world, 4♥ can well be a cuebid agreeing clubs (not with this hand of course). In your world, it seems to be pretty easy to determine what is a good partnership.

In either event, 4S would show three key cards, which is not held and which dooms the slam.  I suspect some version of mess like this, for why else cuebid 4H with Qxxx?  Was 4H natural?  If so, that is silliness.

 

3NT was a tad rich, as well.  But, it may be difficult to stop below 4NT anyway.

North jumps to 2NT, South raises to 3NT. Or North jumps to 3NT, South...passes!

[hrothgar]

Hard to know where to begin...

 

Almost the entire auction is nonsensical.

I like the 1♦ opening. Other than that nothing looks particularly good.

 

The 3NT advance is probably the single worst bid.

[luke warm]

3nt makes no sense to me, even 2nt is pushing it, but i can live with that... 3nt should show strength enough (13-15 or so) for south to look for slam if he wants, iow it should show 4+ controls at least

 

i honestly don't blame south for the 4c bid opposite 3nt.. north should have either a balanced 13-15 with 4+ controls or running clubs with a spade stopper.. in either case, slam isn't that hard to envision

 

so i guess i'll go against the grain and blame north for 3nt

[luis]

South 900% what the hell is 4♣ when North says he has his values in spades?

Just terrible.

[P_Marlowe]

3NT ???

 

You must open a lot sounder than most

people, 2NT is probably enough for most

people, of course a neg. double is even

better, or did North know, that South does not

hold a 4 card heart suit?

 

4C

 

South has a nice opening hand, but nothing

justifying to look for slam, 3NT shows at most

15HCP with lots of wastage in spade, so South

should Pass

 

The only nice thing to say about the auction, you

found each other.

 

Marlowe

[HeartA]

I was South, and surprised to see so many blamed me for the auction.

 

Call me optimistic, but I hate to miss slam. Since the vulnerability is red to white, overcaller could be light. There are too many combinations that could produce a slam if North had 13-15 hcp. Because I had SJ, North could NOT have KJxx, he might have KTxx (assume two stoppers) or AQxx. As long as North had at least 6 cards in minors (as 3NT suggested, with 4-card heart, I would start with dbl) and useful cards, slam was very possible. And because I have extra of at least a K, 4NT should still be safe.

 

As the actual layout, the auction should be ("standard"):

1D - (1S) - dbl - (p)

2C - (p) - 2N - (p)

3NT - ppp.

 

Or if North wants to be aggressive, direct 3NT after 2C is fine, too.

 

I don't even need 15 hcp from North to make slam: KQxx, xx, Axx, Axxx, or KQxx, xx, Axxx, Axx or AQxx, Qxx, Jxx, Axx, etc ...

 

I am sure all of you who blame South would miss a lot of slams.

[luke warm]

South 900% what the hell is 4♣ when North says he has his values in spades?

Just terrible.

luis, if you were south would you expect the north hand after he bid 3nt? i'd expect an ace or 2 kings more, probably

[kenrexford]

I am not sure I understand the Cherdano objection to my post.

 

First, in what system do you use a first cuebid to show third-round control of a suit? Qxxx as the first cuebid? Either 4H flags clubs (in which case RKCB responses make sense) or it makes no sense. This seems to be a partnership problem. Either 4H shows a control (which would be odd as North held Qxxx), asks (in which case the answer seems wrong), or shows four hearts, which seems most unusual.

 

I would agree that stopping below 4NT is easy, if North does not bid 3NT. However, stopping at 3NT after a 3NT call from North is weak bidding. I understand making that stab. Can 4NT be that risky?

[luis]

South 900% what the hell is 4♣ when North says he has his values in spades?

Just terrible.

luis, if you were south would you expect the north hand after he bid 3nt? i'd expect an ace or 2 kings more, probably

11-12 HCP with values in spades

The fact that you have the spades behing the 1♠ bidder and that you don't have a diamond fit strongly suggests that 3NT is probably a good proposition.

[luis]

I was South, and surprised to see so many blamed me for the auction.

 

Call me optimistic, but I hate to miss slam. Since the vulnerability is red to white, overcaller could be light. There are too many combinations that could produce a slam if North had 13-15 hcp. Because I had SJ, North could have KJxx, he might have KTxx (assume two stoppers) or AQxx. As long as North had at least 6 cards in minors (as 3NT suggested, with 4-card heart, I would start with dbl) and useful cards, slam was very possible. And because I have extra of at least a K, 4NT should still be safe.

 

As the actual layout, the auction should be ("standard"):

1D - (1S) - dbl - (p)

2C - (p) - 2N - (p)

3NT - ppp.

 

Or if North wants to be aggressive, direct 3NT after 2C is fine, too.

 

I don't even need 15 hcp from North to make slam: KQxx, xx, Axx, Axxx, or KQxx, xx, Axxx, Axx or AQxx, Qxx, Jxx, Axx, etc ...

 

I am sure all of you who blame South would miss a lot of slams.

I'm not going to say that 3NT was a wonderful bid, it probably wasn't but I really hate your 4♣ bid (no offense intended you are invited to hate a lot of my bids).

The idea of "missing a slam" I think is a phanton, when pd bids 3NT he usually has concentrated values in spades and a missfit for diamonds, it's true you can still have a slam but I don't think you should look for it. It just depends on the probability of a slam, because in order to find the slam you must move from 3NT which, on the bidding is probably your best game.

 

Luis

[HeartA]

luis,

 

First, I don't buy that 3NT was 11-12. Second, I don't believe pd would have too much in spades for two reasons: 1) the overcaller couldn't be nothing in spades, 2) I have SJ.

 

The next time with the similar hand, I would still bid 4C.

 

I hated that 3N bid.

[cherdano]

I am not sure I understand the Cherdano objection to my post.

 

First, in what system do you use a first cuebid to show third-round control of a suit? Qxxx as the first cuebid? Either 4H flags clubs (in which case RKCB responses make sense) or it makes no sense. This seems to be a partnership problem. Either 4H shows a control (which would be odd as North held Qxxx), asks (in which case the answer seems wrong), or shows four hearts, which seems most unusual.

Ah sorry, I thought you were just commenting on the sequence. (You made it sound like it can't be a cuebid because no minor has been agreed yet.) No I wouldn't make a cue-bid with Qxxx.

 

I suppose it was meant as a cuebid, out of enthusiasm for the AJx support. No I still don't like the bid.

 

Arend