more bidding

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sqhxxxxdxxxca109xx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠ (p) 1nt (p)

3♦ (p) ?[/hv]

 

Your bid please?

[P_Marlowe]

3NT

 

You cant pass, and 3S is also out,

this leaves 3H and 3NT, I will

go with 3NT.

 

Marlowe

[joker_gib]

Ditto

[bearmum]

3NT

 

You cant pass, and 3S is also out,

this leaves 3H and 3NT, I will

go with 3NT.

 

Marlowe

ditto

[Winstonm]

3S.

 

The same bid I would make with xx in spades. It is unclear at this point what contract is best but it seems certain that no matter what it is it is better from opener's side. Partner can hold a number of hands for this auction including balanced and semi-balanced hands. He or she should not get overly excited about what may be a false preference to 3S. If partner is unbalanced with a 6/4, the spade Q should be plenty of help. If semibalanced, partner can complete the description with 3N. If strongly unbalanced with 6/5 or 5/5, the next bid should be 4D after which I have a new problem - do I cue bid the club Ace or simply raise to 5 diamonds.

 

Winston

[Walddk]

3♠. No alternative. It doesn't show support, merely preference. 4♦ would promise support (4), 3NT would be the bid with

 

x

Qxxx

xxx

Axxxx

 

and finally, 3♥ would show a suit or values, depending on your agreement.

 

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

 

It is unclear at this point what contract is best but it seems certain that no matter what it is it is better from opener's side. 

 

<snip>

Hi,

 

this may be true, but you already did

bid 1NT, so NT will always be played from

your side, but partner may be missing a

club stopper ... or a heart stopper.

 

Marlowe

[helene_t]

3NT. Hamman's rule.

 

The only way to get to 3NT is to bid it now.

[jillybean]

I went searching for "Hammans Rule" and found this interesting site, The Bridge World Bridge Gloassary'

 

http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=b...y&f=glossh.html

 

Still searching for more information on Hammans Rule...

[Walddk]

3NT. Hamman's rule.

Excellent rule, but 3NT is not one of the alternatives with that hand in my opinion, and I doubt that Hamman himself would bid it.

 

Roland

[Al_U_Card]

If you bid 3NT wouldn't that deny the preference doubleton S? 6 hcp opposite a J/S seems about right for 3NT and the C suit may produce a few tricks while the H babies will stop them from running off 5 H tricks to start.....I hope.

[mikeh]

3♠

 

3N is not a reasonable alternative, and I believe that Haman's Rule does contain some reference to 3N being at least a plausible possibility. It is not on this hand: or did I miss the ♥ card that 3N shows?

 

In the interim, there is no need to panic. 4♠ will often be a fine contract, and even slam may be fine: imagine partner sitting with AKJxxx x AKQxx x: how would the bidding have gone so far? And, in terms of hcp, that is not even a maximum for his hand. If he holds AKJxx x AKQxx Qx, he will pass 3N. Good luck!

 

As a previous poster noted, the Q♠ is easily worth xx, and would we not all happily bid 3♠ with xx xxxx Qxx Axxxx? (If not, you should ;) )

[P_Marlowe]

As a previous poster noted, the Q♠ is easily worth xx, and would we not all happily bid 3♠ with xx xxxx Qxx Axxxx? (If not, you should :D )

I would bid 3S with xx, and the Q is easily worth xx,

but only if you catch patrtner with a 6 card suit.

 

But he may have only a 5 carder, ... and he will

most of the time.

 

Marlowe

[cherdano]

I went searching for "Hammans Rule" and found this interesting site, The Bridge World Bridge Gloassary'

 

http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=b...y&f=glossh.html

 

Still searching for more information on Hammans Rule...

Hamman's rule (n): A commonly used excuse for bad 3NT bids. Attributed to ->Bob Hamman, but often referred to in situations where he would never dream of applying it. Whereas it can end the discussion in many bridge circles, the contributors at a well-known bridge forum know better.

[jillybean]

very funny :D

[Al_U_Card]

As a previous poster noted, the Q♠ is easily worth xx, and would we not all happily bid 3♠ with xx xxxx Qxx Axxxx? (If not, you should :D )

I would bid 3S with xx, and the Q is easily worth xx,

but only if you catch patrtner with a 6 card suit.

 

But he may have only a 5 carder, ... and he will

most of the time.

 

Marlowe

I can appreciate the preference due to the "value" of the SQ but will opener then bid 3NT with Jxx of H? (AKJxx,Jxx,AKJx,Q)

[Al_U_Card]

Hamman's rule (n): A commonly used excuse for bad 3NT bids. Attributed to ->Bob Hamman, but often referred to in situations where he would never dream of applying it.

The same can be said for most bromides and platitudes as well as numerous conventions and treatments.... :D

[luis]

3♠ if somebody has to bid 3NT it's not me.

[han]

3♠, 3NT is not an option.

 

 

Good thread.

[Cascade]

3S.

 

The same bid I would make with xx in spades.  It is unclear at this point what contract is best but it seems certain that no matter what it is it is better from opener's side.  Partner can hold a number of hands for this auction including balanced and semi-balanced hands.  He or she should not get overly excited about what may be a false preference to 3S.  If partner is unbalanced with a 6/4, the spade Q should be plenty of help.  If semibalanced, partner can complete the description with 3N.  If strongly unbalanced with 6/5 or 5/5, the next bid should be 4D after which I have a new problem - do I cue bid the club Ace or simply raise to 5 diamonds.

 

Winston

I'm for 3♠ too.

 

However this explanation ignores the problem opener will have with some very ordinary 5=3=4=1 and 5=1=4=3 hands.

 

These problems are quite likely as I would expect partner to bid 2NT with many 5=2=4=2 hands especially if the doubletons were strong.

 

I'll leave those problems for partner to solve.

[mike777]

3nt, will leave the 3s bids to the experts.

[Robert]

Hello everyone

 

That example hand with 19 junky HCPs made up of an unguarded J, a stiff Q and two broken suits AKJxx Jxx AKJx Q might be better off bidding 2D over 1NT

 

If you are a beginner or intermediate with a weak heart do not read anything

below this line. The methods described are not standard bidding.

******************************************************************

 

Alvin Roth describes in his book, "Picture Bidding' how he bids a powerful hand by showing three suits and allows partner to pass if the hands do not fit at the three level.

 

Since partner often holds xx or Hx in spades, an auction opposite such a hand would be bid as follows.

 

Roth would likely not bid this hand(his opening bid show 14+HCP) as a powerful three suiter, however, if it were worth a jump shift, he would likely bid

1S-1NT-2D-2S-3H passable and showing 5341 Since with a four card heart suit, he would have bid 1S-1NT-2H-2S-3D with 5431

 

Roth also suggested that responder over a jump shift should just bid the next higher suit so that opener could bid out his pattern.

 

1S-1NT-3D-3H* is a waiting bid like 2C-2D* is some standard methods.

 

1S-1NT-3D-3H*-3S would show a 6S and 4D hand so the champions of the spade Queen being worth xx would be correct here. Opposite the example hand with AKJxx the stiff Queen is much less valuable in a 5-1 trump fit.

 

After partner shows a 6 card spade suit 1S-1NT-3D-3H*-3S that spade Q is an easy raise to 4S. If Roth is your partner, a 4C cuebid over 3S might even be possilbe. Roth had very high standards for opening bids. His strong jump shifts would be a thing of beauty and a joy forever.

 

1S-1NT-3D-3H*-3NT could show 5242

 

Holding 5341 I really like the Roth auction

1S-1NT-2D-2S-3H passable I tend to sometimes bid this way in my Big Club system. :D

 

Regards,

Robert

[Winstonm]

When you begin constructing hands consistent with partner's bidding you find that almost 100% of the time it contains a good spade suit - on the lines of AKJxx or AK10xx. The singleton Q of spades is adequate support for these suits in a game contract facing a known powerful hand.

 

It is my thinking that opener should strive to pattern out over 3S, bidding 4H with 5341, 4C with 5143, and 3N with 5422, and 4D with 6/5 5/5; however, quite often we will find partner with a 6331, 6421, 6332 that was awkward to bid - how many times have we seen a jump shift on a 3-card suit in these auctions - and 3S is the best time IMO to show a modicum of support. It does not rule out 3N and keeps many other contract viable.

 

But as anything, it is not a perfect bid - just the most flexible.

 

Winston

[Robert]

Hello Winstonm

 

Very good ideas in many cases, however, some ideas that I do not share.

 

Opener will not have strong spade suits anywhere near 100% of the time.

He only holds 5 cards in spades so his average holding from 19 HCP is a fraction that is 5 parts out of 13(The number of spades in a ratio to the 13 cards in the hand. The average holding in spades is about 38.46% or 7.3HCP

 

Since you cannot hold a fraction of a point, the average holding is about 7HCP

 

AKxxx opposite Q is not too bad. Something decent percentage of the time the hand will have less than 7 HCP in the suit. AJxxx opposite "Q' is not looking quite so good.

 

Since only the AKJ are possible combinations for the spade suit, a 6HCP holding is not possible. 0,1,3,4,5,7 and 8 are the holdings under consideration.

 

KJxxx opposite Q has two likely trump losers.

 

Axxxx opposite Q would give many people ulcers.

 

Kxxxx opposite Q is causing people to give up bridge.

 

Jxxxx AKQ AKQx x would be a rare case, however, playing Jxxxx opposite Q

 

would be a real character builder.

 

If partner 'relayed' with a 'waiting' type bid over the 3D bid, opener could indeed show his 6 card suit holding a 6331 type.

 

It is open to debate if opener should rebid his six card spade suit over

1S-1NT-3D-3NT, since partner could often be 0-1 cards in spades.

 

Biddng 4H with a junky 19HCP including an unsupported Jxx and a stiff Q

will get you to some really strange contracts when partner holds clubs.

 

I bid 1M-1NT-2m holding 18HCP hands that are stronger than this junky 19HCP Queen and Jack filled type hand.

 

5341 opposite 1336 Are you sure that you do not want to go back and bid 3NT?

What contract will you be playing?

 

Does partner prefer 4S on 'x' of spades or pass and play xxx opposite Jxx in four heats?

 

4NT appears to be inferior to 3NT with a possible result ending with 9 tricks.

 

Regards,

Robert

[han]

Opener will not have strong spade suits anywhere near 100% of the time.

He only holds 5 cards in spades so his average holding from 19 HCP is a fraction that is 5 parts out of 13(The number of spades in a ratio to the 13 cards in the hand. The average holding in spades is about 38.46% or 7.3HCP

I read through the whole post and by the end I didn't remember what point you were trying to make. So let me only react to the fraction that I've quoted here, which is false for several reasons.

 

If any hand with 19HCP's qualified then you would expect that slightly less than 38.46% of the HCP's is in spades. You can figure out why, but it is not very important.

 

Much more important is that counting HCP's is not a good way to determine whether a hand qualifies for a jump shift. A hand with a good spade suit is much more likely to make a jump shift than a hand with a bad spade suit and the same number of HCP's. So in practice we can indeed expect a good spade suit.

 

But this is all irrelevant, the truth is that 3S does not promise spade support (and for some it denies spade support). So if partner decides to play in spades then we know for certain that partner has a good spade suit.