Asking for Aces

[Cascade]

Yes I know that Gerber is everyone's favourite convention.

 

Well this is not about Gerber.

 

I am curious as to what agreements people have about asking for Aces in convoluted auctions especially when a Grand Slam is still possible but there has been no suit agreement and we are already at 3NT or sometimes 4NT.

 

It is difficult to give examples as some will be system dependent ...

 

1♠ 2♣

2♥ 3♣ forcing

3NT ???

 

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 3♣ fourth suit forcing

4NT

 

4NT is quantitative.

 

Does anyone have some good general principles?

 

Someone suggested to me over 3NT play 5♣ as Ace-Asking.

 

I have thought of playing the cheapest impossible (new suit, repeat of 4th suit etc) bid as an Ace Ask?

 

Any better ideas?

 

Thanks

[Al_U_Card]

I have the following agreements for those 2 auctions (as crazy as they may be, at least we have this as an understanding to use at our peril....)

 

4C is RKC for C

 

4NT is quantitative but if you accept, you respond RKC for S. (always S)

[Cascade]

4NT is quantitative but if you accept, you respond RKC for S. (always S)

Always spades or always the first bid suit?

[mike777]

Yes I know that Gerber is everyone's favourite convention.

 

Well this is not about Gerber.

 

I am curious as to what agreements people have about asking for Aces in convoluted auctions especially when a Grand Slam is still possible but there has been no suit agreement and we are already at 3NT or sometimes 4NT.

 

It is difficult to give examples as some will be system dependent  ...

 

1♠ 2♣

2♥ 3♣ forcing

3NT ???

 

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 3♣ fourth suit forcing

4NT

 

4NT is quantitative.

 

Does anyone have some good general principles?

 

Someone suggested to me over 3NT play 5♣ as Ace-Asking.

 

I have thought of playing the cheapest impossible (new suit, repeat of 4th suit etc) bid as an Ace Ask?

 

Any better ideas?

 

Thanks

1) 4d=rkc for clubs,4nt=quant, 4c is game forcing but does not want to take control for some reason.

2) 4nt must be very well defined quant. range, for me around 17-18 hcp, so bid 6 or 7, I think showing aces just gives the opp information. Of course I see on bbo most just show oldfashion blackwood here.

[Al_U_Card]

4NT is quantitative but if you accept, you respond RKC for S. (always S)

Always spades or always the first bid suit?

We have that agreement (S always) altho nothing wrong with it being the one you like but using kickback 4D asks for C 4H asks for D etc. is the rest of the scheme.

[Al_U_Card]

1) 4d=rkc for clubs,4nt=quant.

2) 4nt must be very well defined quant. range so bid 6 or 7, I think showing aces just gives the opp information. Of course I see on bbo most just show old fashion blackwood here.

I am amazed by the times Blackwood is invoked when that hand has 2 quick losers in a side suit.......Easley must get dizzy from spinning in his grave, may G rest his soul.

[mikeh]

I use 5♣ over a sign-off 3N as gerber: it is difficult to come up with a hand and sequence in which the 5♣ bidder intends this as to play AND could not afford 4♣ instead. To the extent that such can arise, then giving up on this possibility, in favour of ace asking, is a small price to pay.

 

More generically, in my established partnerships, we sometimes have auctions in which we cannot ask for Aces. Thus, if we are in a minor-agreed game force auction and we have reached the 4-level, we cannot ask for aces as such. 4N is a forward-going move, the precise inference depending on context:

 

If we have agreed upon a minor, and we have a jump available to the 4-level in a suit immediately above 4 of the minor, that is keycard.

 

1♥   2♦

3♦   4♠ is keycard, because 4♥ would be a minimum 2452 gf hand

 

If we jump beyond game, it is exclusion keycard

 

In ♥, we switch 4♠ and 4N: if we are not jumping, 4N (usually) becomes a ♠ cue, while 4♠ is keycard (note the need to have agreements when ♠ might conceivably be a trump suit).

 

After texas transfer auctions, a new suit is exclusion (if we transfer into 4♥, 4♠ is regular 1430 while 4N is exclusion in ♠)

 

If we bid and raise two suits, thus establishing a double fit, any keycard is 2-suit (6keycards, two Quenns) keycard.

 

The inablility to use keycard in some minor suit auctions has never yet been an issue: I often think that an advancing, not quite expert, pair would do good things for their valuation processes, not to mention bidding 'touch' if they were to forgo any ace-asking for 6 months to a year. The 'keep it going' 4N is a very useful device.

[Gerben42]

Rebidding your minor is conditional RKC. So in your example auction, 4♣ would be RKC but if you respond 4NT that means "partner leave me alone".

 

After a quantitative 4NT we are too high to ask for suit-aces. The response to the Q4NT on the 5-level is number of REAL aces. A response to the 6-level is a choice of slams between 6NT and the bid contract.