When would you balance?

[adhoc3]

A5 QT86 Q75 9876

 

pass--pass--pass--1NT

pass--pass--???

 

Beside hand evaluation, are there any other considerations to make a balance bid?

[han]

When reading this thread the following sentence occured to me: "NEVER, are you crazy???"

[Robert]

Hello everyone

 

The hand is perhaps of less importance than the sum total of the other 'signs.'

 

I gave a very brief consideration to 'if' I would ever balance with this hand.

 

Upon reading the vulnerablity, I froze in horror.

 

Table presense counts for a lot when you balance. I can remember 'looting and pillaging against some very weak pairs. One memory still stands out, I was playing against two very nice ladies in a short swiss match.

 

It became quite evident early on that we would defeat these ladies, the only question was by how much. On one hand my partner doubled their 4M bid holding one Queen and one Jack after I overcalled 1NT. I held a massive 18HCP quick trick holding and the evidence was overwhelming that their level of play was terrible.

 

Partner had doubled the declarer not the contract. Even if the hand could make, this declarer would never make the hand.

 

We were joking about it later and I protested that he had doubled 'before' I could.

 

On the last hand of the set, I doubled a freely bid 6H contract. It went down two and our other pair made the slam on an endplay. My comment was that I doubled because I did not believe that 'she' could make the hand.

 

I used to play against a very good card player that liked to overbid a lot. I noticed that his game changed when my pair sat down against him. He knew that we liked to double and defend. He changed his bidding style because of the conditions for his overbidding had changed.

 

A very good expert once claimed that 'nobody' doubled him. It was a slight overstatement, however, his claim was quite true in general. He was a very good decarer and few weak pairs ever doubled any contract that he bid.

 

I often bid more when I judge the defense will be inferior. My partner's card player often rewards this strategy.

 

One should note 'who' is vulnerable as a major traffic signal. White vs Red means go, equal = caution and Red vs White means that you should 'have all of your bid.'

 

The quality and style of the other pair is very important. If they 'look' like they will not double you, overbidding will rarely be punished.

 

Methods are very important. I just switched to a new improved 1NT defense. I suspect that I will be using it 10-15% more than I used my old method. The change is a direct result of my judgment that partner will find a good fit more often.

 

Regards,

Robert

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the shape and the vul. lead to the answer:

never.

 

Saying I would never bal. against 15-17,

would be a lie, but I would need better shape,

red vs. green 5-5.

 

There are hands I would not open in 3rd seat,

simply because I do not 2-suiter openings,

but I would bal. with a bid to show the 2-suiter.

 

Marlowe

[Robert]

Hello P-Marlowe

 

I often balance and I also made direct bids when a 15-17HCP NT rears its ugly head. I just swtiched to a 'hopefully' better 1NT defense so I hope to bid and balanced at a somewhat higher rate against 1NT openings of any size.

 

I would 'never balance' with the 'quoted example hand' when 'vulnerable' and probably not even if non vulnerable. :P

 

Meckwell shows a 5-5 or 5-6 shape with as little as 5HCP if the one example that I saw is standard with them.

 

My direct actions tend to be a bit better than that example. I suspect that if partner knows what is going on(a prior agreement) you can bid with extreme shape and very few points.

 

You might find a cheap save or perhaps even a making contract. :)

 

Regards,

Robert

[Finch]

When reading this thread the following sentence occured to me: "NEVER, are you crazy???"

Ditto

[Gerben42]

Well if I need a swing and I have this hand, my reaction would be: How is your aunt in Chicago?

 

If not I'd just pass.

[P_Marlowe]

Hello P-Marlowe

 

I often balance and I also made direct bids when a 15-17HCP NT rears its ugly head. I just swtiched to a 'hopefully' better 1NT defense so I hope to bid and balanced at a somewhat higher rate against 1NT openings of any size.

 

I would 'never balance' with the 'quoted example hand' when 'vulnerable' and probably not even if non vulnerable. :P

 

Meckwell shows a 5-5 or 5-6 shape with as little as 5HCP if the one example that I saw is standard with them.

 

My direct actions tend to be a bit better than that example. I suspect that if partner knows what is going on(a prior agreement) you can bid with extreme shape and very few points.

 

You might find a cheap save or perhaps even a making contract. :)

 

Regards,

Robert

Hi,

 

yes you should go in against their NT

opening as often as possible, and 5-5 / 6-5

with 5-6HCP is perfect.

 

I am not sure, I would go in with the given hand

green vs. red, but ... this depends on beer,

wine and / or Sun - Moon constellation.

Most likely I pass, but I have done it.

 

Marlowe

[joker_gib]

Balancing with that hand will never cross my mind ! :P

 

I pass at the speed of light ! :)

 

Alain

[helene_t]

Sorry, the idiot who voted "always" was I.

 

I was kinda sleepy and thought the question was under what conditions you would pass.

[Gerben42]

Most likely I pass, but I have done it.

 

Marlowe

 

Last time I didn't mind you doing that :P Keep bringing in the tops!

[Robert]

Hello P-Marlowe

 

I like to 'trust partner.' He loaned the the book about DONT methods. I did not see anything about 5-5 shapes and 5HCP. 54 shapes and near opening bid values seemed to be the 'standard.'

 

I did see the Meckwell 5(6?)HCP example bid with extreme shape and it appeared to be a reasonable bid 'if' partner was also in on the joke. :)

 

Getting to a good save or a makable contract is good bridge.

 

Having partner double the other pair because he believed that my 'little joke' showed near opening bid values is not good bridge. :(

 

I switched recently to a better method so hopefully I can bid more over enemy 1NT opening bids.

 

I agree that bidding with a 5HCP hand with extreme shape is correct tactics.

I just want to make sure that my partner also holds that same view. :)

 

Regards,

Robert

[Kalvan14]

Overcalling a 15-17 is quite often a valubale opportunity.

I play DONT too, and th method is quite effective, provide you handle properly this aggressive tool.

It is more a matter of losers (and of having decent intermediates in your suit) than of holding points. And I dound out with pleasure that a 5-4 shape is more than adequate.

 

The posted hand does not match any of the criteria for a vulnerable overcall; the answer should be "never". OTOH, at times you might be in need of a swing, or you might be playing weak oppos or whatever, so I'll amend my answer to "almost never"

[whereagles]

One of the factors to have in mind when thinking of balancing 1NT is partner's lead. On this hand, any lead pard makes will be good. We contribute with strenght in 3 suits and with lenght in the 4th suit. All leads will be good, so there's no need to play the hand ourselves.

 

That, coupled to the fact that our distribution sucks, hints clearly at a pass in most circumstances.

[P_Marlowe]

Most likely I pass, but I have done it.

 

Marlowe

 

Last time I didn't mind you doing that :) Keep bringing in the tops!

:( We are working on it. Several weeks ago I could

claim I never went for 800 ... 1100 ... +, with such actions,

that aint true anymore, it happend several times during the

last weeks.

 

Also in the seq.

 

(1X) - Pass - (1Y) - 1NT (1)

...

 

(1) 2-suiter, more shapely than X, i.e. 5-4

 

We learn and fight.

 

Marlowe

 

PS: There is an old saying:

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."

But also a sentece from Klinger:

"The meek may inherite the earth, but they dont win

at bridge"

 

PSS: I went for a number against you, because I

killed partner, his auction was fine, but mine was

the request, to shoot us, ... who could have known

that the oppoent would take me serious.

[Chamaco]

Hi,

 

yes you should go in against their NT

opening as often as possible, and 5-5 / 6-5

with 5-6HCP is perfect.

I always thought like that, but...

 

Trying to give it a little more thought, isn't it like the situation of the Unusual 2NT ?

 

When we overcall a U2NT with very weak hand against competent opps and it's their hand, we often give them a clear picture of whether double or play the hand (double dummy).

 

Now, if we adopt the same tactics vs strong NT isn't it easier for them to double or bid when it's right ?

 

Instead, if our 2-suited overcalls are more random in terms of strength/shape, opps task will be more difficult, no?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

yes you should go in against their NT

opening as often as possible, and 5-5 / 6-5

with 5-6HCP is perfect.

I always thought like that, but...

 

Trying to give it a little more thought, isn't it like the situation of the Unusual 2NT ?

 

When we overcall a U2NT with very weak hand against competent opps and it's their hand, we often give them a clear picture of whether double or play the hand (double dummy).

 

Now, if we adopt the same tactics vs strong NT isn't it easier for them to double or bid when it's right ?

 

Instead, if our 2-suited overcalls are more random in terms of strength/shape, opps task will be more difficult, no?

of course you should make it random,

but do it 5-5 with 5 HCP.

 

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

To reopen 1NT there is only 1 requirement: being unnbalanced. You ain't, you don't.

[Al_U_Card]

While 5-5 with 5 hcp doesn't give you much of an honor card "structure" solid suits in front of and broken suits behind the "big" hand also come into play. Playing for a swing has a lot of "backfire" potential but table feel can be important.

 

The example hand has so little going for it in front of the 1NT but perhaps a bit more if behind the 1NT. As a passed hand, pard can only contribute shape and a) he failed to act while B) his shape may well be a mis-fit. Crosshand communication is critical against 15-17 NT opps.

 

I would never consider balancing except wht vs red against weak opps.

[Double !]

When reading this thread the following sentence occured to me: "NEVER, are you crazy???"

add to this

 

"are you suicidal?"

[Guest Jlall]

When reading this thread the following sentence occured to me: "NEVER, are you crazy???"

add to this

 

"are you suicidal?"

Funny, I voted other concern: If I was severely depressed and wanted to kill myself.

 

Anyways, balanced hands should not bid over a strong NT no matter how strong. If you make, you will beat 1N, and you will be very unlikely to have a game yourself.

[pclayton]

Well I think its closer than everyone thinks. Don't even suggest making a call at IMPs on this. But MPs is interesting.

 

If they make 1N, -90 rates to suck. If they are going down, then +50 vs. our partscore doesn't look too appetizing. If they are going -2, then -100 isn't too nice either. Hard to see a lot of upside to a pass, except to avoid a # our way.

 

The worse our hand is, the better pard's hand is. This is especially true when a double by pard can mean just about anything but a penalty.

 

If you have a phobia about balancing with this drek, then add two kings. Has the hand gotten better? I would argue that it has gotten worse, since our honors are sitting under the strong NT bidder.

 

Still, the honor structure of this hand sucks, and there is a logical limit to what we rate to hold in this position, and this doesn't quite pass muster.

[awm]

If they make 1N, -90 rates to suck. If they are going down, then +50 vs. our partscore doesn't look too appetizing. If they are going -2, then -100 isn't too nice either. Hard to see a lot of upside to a pass, except to avoid a # our way.

I've seen a lot of people reason like this. But it seems like there is a strong assumption here that we can make something. The other side of the reasoning would seem to be:

 

If we bid and go down two (or down one doubled) then our -200 is a sure bottom. If we go one down, then -100 is worse than -90, so a lot of the time we would do badly.

 

On this hand there's no particular reason to think we are making anything, since our hand is pretty flat, partner's hand is probably pretty flat (he didn't bid over 1NT either), and we seem to have somewhere between 17 and 19 hcp.

 

I've noticed a lot of people who bid like lunatics over the opponents notrump. Perhaps these people are bad defenders. I've noticed that I generally get pretty good scores defending 1NT, as it is one of the hardest contracts to declare.

[han]

Phil, you must have missed that our partner passed in first seat. I would pass even if partner wasn't a passed hand, but now surely no case can be made for bidding. It is quite unlikely that we can make anything.

[beatrix45]

:angry: Thirteen cards and an unbalanced mind. Is it my bid now????