brian11374 Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 My partner dealt and had Kx Jxxx AKxxx A10 while I had Qxx AKxxxx x KJx. The bidding went (opps silent) 1D-1H3H-4C4D-4HP I was worried that we were off the AK of spades, so I thought my cuebid sequence showed my "problem". My partner passed because she had a minimum for her 3H bid and because the lead was coming through her Kx of spades. Should she bid 4S anyway? Should I bid 5H instead of 4H to show my extras? Is there something else I'm missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 My partner dealt and had Kx Jxxx AKxxx A10 while I had Qxx AKxxxx x KJx. The bidding went (opps silent) 1D-1H3H-4C4D-4HP Should she bid 4S anyway? Should I bid 5H instead of 4H to show my extras? Is there something else I'm missing? Hi Brian, welcome to the BBF. First, on your auction, yes, I think your bid is 5H not 4H. As you guess, this ask your partner to bid the slam with a Spade control. this assumes of course that 4D promised first round control as opposed to just a control (first or second). Second, there is a nifty convention known as "serious 3NT" that allows you to show slam interest at a low level. After a fit like this one, your hand would bid 3NT, showing serious slam interest and deny first or second round control in spades (since you didn't bid 3S). Your partner would bid 4H ONLY when lacking first or second round control of spades. Here, when she cue-bids 4C you know that your side has first or second round control of all side suits, so you can pull out blackwood and bid the slam. To read more about serious 3NT, go to the BBO site library and read the articles on improving 2/1 Game Force by Fred Gitelman, or go to the training room on the BBO sight and read the notes on BBO Advanced. Again, welcome to the BB Forum. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 My partner dealt and had Kx Jxxx AKxxx A10 while I had Qxx AKxxxx x KJx. The bidding went (opps silent) 1D-1H3H-4C4D-4HP I was worried that we were off the AK of spades, so I thought my cuebid sequence showed my "problem". My partner passed because she had a minimum for her 3H bid and because the lead was coming through her Kx of spades. Should she bid 4S anyway? Should I bid 5H instead of 4H to show my extras? Is there something else I'm missing? Cue-bidding is a complex topic. If you play Italian style cue-bids where bypassing a suit denies a control in it, then this hand is easy: 4C showed Clubs but NOT Spades, hence 4D showed Diamonds AND Spades (opener would sign off if he knew both partners lack Spade control). So you can now check on Aces and bid the slam. If you play a more flexible style then you really need to plan your auctions (which involves putting yourself into partner's shoes). Here, I would say to myself as responder "We are clearly well into the slam zone and the 5 level should be safe opposite partner's jump response. Even if I cue-bid 4C, partner still won't know quite how slam-suitable I am, so I can't give her a chance to stop in 4H." If you had got this far, then I think you would have found the 5H bid. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Hi all, I totally agree with Eric, that cuebidding is not easy.First, you have to talk about the style: mixed cuebids or firstround controls first. The first way is very common here in Europe. But even then, what does the sequence 1D 1 H 3 H 4 C 4 D show? Sure it does show spade control, else you simple bid 4 H. Does it show diamond control? Hmm seems so, but otoh: If you control both missing suits, why should you bid Diamonds and not simple ask for aces? So in my opinion 4 Diamond should show the lack of Diamond control here, even if this seems to be counterintuitive. But without talking with my pd about that, I had took 4 D as showing both controls and launched RCKB to reach the slam. Obviously you choose the modern mixed cuebids way, else you would not have bid 4 Club. Kind Regards Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 A good question raised here. When the cuebid shows a first round control or just a control? Here even if south jump to 5H. North may still not go to 6 worrying about the spade suit. Whether she should do so entirely depends on if south has SQ. I think it is not clear at all from bidding. South may have: S: XX H: AKXXXX D: X C: KQXXWith this hand, north has play for 6N. But with the hand in the thread, 6H is a good contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 1D-1H3H-4C4D-4HP I partially agree with Eric and I think cuebidding is not a complex part of bidding actually it is very easy once you know the fundamentals. In this auction 4c shows:- A hand with slam interest, otherwise just bid 4h- A club control (A, K, void or singleton)- NOT a spade control (otherwise bid 3s first) Then the 4d bid MUST show a spade control (A,K, void or singleton) without a spade control opener simply bids 4h because partner already denied a spade control and then they can cash AK of spades. Since 4d shows a spade control and 4h denies a spade control the 4d cuebid doesn't show nor denies a control in diamonds, in fact it doesn't have anything to do with diamonds.After 4d responder can ask for keycards and drive to 6h after discovering that your side is missing one keycard. Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 My partner dealt and had Kx Jxxx AKxxx A10 while I had Qxx AKxxxx x KJx. The bidding went (opps silent) 1D-1H3H-4C4D-4HP First a question: do you guys play 1D-2H weak? Because imo 1D-2H FG is a lot better (just my opinion). Then the bidding goes:1D-2H3H-...and you know partner has something extra. But you're still in the same bidding sequence of controls. The way I play it, 4D shows S and ASKS a stop in D (= "last train", asuming you have control in trump). Because showing S and D, partner has shown C, it has no use. Here I'd still bid 4D, just to see what my partner has in D. If he shows control, he's single or void and he should have something in S (since he showed a FG hand). Complete bidding sequence:1D-2H3H-4C4D-4S (4S = control D and 3rd round control in S - in case of half a stop)4NT-5H6H-p The problem with bidding 1H is that you can still have a 4 card H, and partner doesn't know anything of strength. Imo it's quite difficult to find slam then... Another way I've heard of is bidding controls circular the first round. So 3S would mean control D, 4C control S, 4D control C. Then the bidding would be:1D-1H3H-3S4D-?And then again 4S as last train, showing half a stop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian11374 Posted October 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Thanks everyone. I just totally misssed the spade inference of partner's 4D (to be fair I'm not sure she really knew either!). One further question - if 4D shows a spade stopper but says nothing about diamonds, do I need to announce this before the openning lead? If I missed the inference, perhaps a defender might as well. Thanks again. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Luis I agree that the 1st / 2nd round cue bidding style that you recommend is simple and logical.I prefer to play it myself. However, it is very far from standard.Within the US (and several other areas) standard methods state that cue bids show a first round control. In this case, there is no way to infer that the 4D cue promises a spade control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Luis I agree that the 1st / 2nd round cue bidding style that you recommend is simple and logical.I prefer to play it myself. However, it is very far from standard.Within the US (and several other areas) standard methods state that cue bids show a first round control. In this case, there is no way to infer that the 4D cue promises a spade control. Richard,Cuebids showing only 1st round controls are old, maybe that's whats written in some old books or texts copying from that books I think most modern American pairs do bid 1st/2nd round controls without distinction but maybe I'm wrong. As a good theorist in system design I think you will agree that 1st round only cuebids are a complete nonsense, but maybe a perfect nonsense adition to the dreaded sayc :-)This is even more ridiculuous if followed by RKCB, used to find the trump King or confirm the number of aces you already know you have :-) Bah... As side note one of my partners couldn't resist faking cuebids specially at matchpoints, so we just switched to a 4c bid to ask for aces leaving room to ask for kings, queens and jacks, even specific queens if needed. The risk is that we might be missing AK in some suit but if we would have faked the control anyway it doesn't matter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Hi Luis Interesting post. I associate the cue bidding style in which first and second round controls are shown with the Italian Blue Team. This style is well documented in books dating back to the early 60s. I certainly don't consider this to be a modern style. In contrast, I have seen a large number of sources from North America published significantly more recently catagorically assert that cue bids are used to show first round controls. My own impression is that the key dividing line is geographical rather than temporal. Personally, I think that there are advantages and disadvantages to each style. A cue bidding style based on 1st/2nd round controls is much better at discovering whether the pair is missing controls in a given suit. It makes it relatively easy to determine whether there is a good small slam. In many cases, the critical information weakness can be discovered in time to signoff in 4M. A cue bidding style based on showing first round controls is typically considered superior when judging between a small slam and a grand slam. Furthermore, this style requires much less judgement to apply. [The ambiguous 4NT in Blue Club can make life very tricky for an inexperienced partnership] My own preference is to cuebid 1st/2nd round controls, however, I consider myself to be one of a small minority within the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 I think Richard's assessment is probably accurate for the UK too as most pairs will show 1st round controls before 2nd. The majority who are playing 1st/2nd will be using strong club systems, either Blue or Precision. I think most experts have gravitated to a flexible approach. The preference is not for 1st/2nd, but at times this is the only sensible way to bid a hand. I also agree with Richard in that there are pros and cons in both methods. I think the 1st/2nd lets you bid more slams, of which a number are missing two aces. I play both methods and don't believe that there is a huge difference in the results. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 The way I play it, 4D shows S and ASKS a stop in D (= "last train", asuming you have control in trump). Because showing S and D, partner has shown C, it has no use. Playing 1st and second round cues, Free's comment above makes a lot of sense. I would suspect that Richard's assertion holds true for Australia as well. Most would cue bid first only and only experts have gone over to 1st and 2nd. Fwiw I think the latter method is superior, but also more complicated in the latter stages of a cue bidding auction when coupled with concepts such as serious or frivolous 3NT and Last Train to Clarksville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 to me, the fact that responder didn't bid 3nt (after 3H) meant no slam interest.. 4C had to be bid in case opener had slam interest, and of course it showed no spade control... i think opener should go straight to rkc over 4C, since the spade control is known, the club suit is solid, the diamonds are controlled... i honestly can't find any fault in 4H bid after 4D, what else can responder do? (unless you do play 4D showed a spade control)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 to me, the fact that responder didn't bid 3nt (after 3H) meant no slam interest.. 4C had to be bid in case opener had slam interest, and of course it showed no spade control... i think opener should go straight to rkc over 4C, since the spade control is known, the club suit is solid, the diamonds are controlled... i honestly can't find any fault in 4H bid after 4D, what else can responder do? (unless you do play 4D showed a spade control)... Why is the spade control known??? You have Kx, and the opening lead may be SQ through your Kx, so you'll lose 2 easy tricks, going down without a chance of ever making this contract. Imo, you have only half a control, and you need help from your partner, this is the Q or J10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 so pass? or bid 4S? 4S is probably better, partner can bid 5H with no spade control, but with the actual hand will rkc i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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