mr1303 Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 [hv=n=saqt9hkqdqjtxckjx&s=sxxxhtxdakxxxcaqx]133|200|[/hv] Playing Acol, the bidding was: 1S (4 card majors) 2D (Acol style)3NT (18-19 bal) 4NT (nat inv)6D all pass As you can see, this needed the double spade finesse to make, which unsurprisingly wasn't right. Who's fault was it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 The system, which was unable to discover the mirrored shapes :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 3NT suffers from two flaws: (1) it is an overbid, (2) it doesn't show the diamond support. I don't know whether you could have done any better, a bit unlucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 Responders fault, he did bid the slam on mass,(else why did he bid 4NT?), altough he did know that at best there were 32 HCP around, simplearethmetic. He did not know about the diamond fit. Marlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 Hello mr1303 All of the bidding was decent. No glaring errors at all. :) The hands just did not fit. There was duplication in several suits. :( Move some of the cards or minor changes in the shape would result in 12 winners. The Jacks in both diamonds and clubs did nothing to help win tricks. :( Trade in the Jacks in diamonds and clubs plus the heart Queen for the exact same 4HCP in spades and you would be asking why you missed a lay down 6NT. If this is the worst contract that you have ever been in, you are either really good or very lucky. :) I play a slam bidding method that asks for control total and checks for suit fits. I include a warning that holding minimum HCPs the presense of even one Jack is a warning sign. That North hand held two jacks so that might have suggested signing off. Regards, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Both overbid, North overbid the most, he had a clear 5♦ bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbreath Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 HiI think a little unlucky .. but i dont evaluate that KQ doubleton as making the 3nt rebid by yr methodsRgds Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 South's invitation was a little bit too light. By the same token, North is minimum for his bidding to date - only 18 HCP and 5 of them in a doubleton. On the other hand, this is very close to being a good slam (Just give south ♠Jxx or ♠xx ♥Jxx and suddenly slam is 50%. Similarly you coul give North ♠AQJT or ♥KQJ ♣Kx with the same effect). Playing a natural system it is very difficult to diagnose these fitting Jacks. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 All the biddings are OK. Maybe North orverbid a little as Fluffy pointed out. With South's hand, I would never passed out 3NT after North told a hand of 18-19 balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 North overbid. 1. He showed 18-19 with 17 hcp - all he has extra is a diamond fit but this bid did not show that. 2. He accepted a quantitative raise with a sub-minimum hand. 3. 4 controls (slam cards) is poor for 17 hcp hand. It is even worse for an 18-19 hcp. Notice how much better slam would be if North had just ♠K in place of ♥Q and ♣J but then 6NT would be the better slam. Edited: Whoops I can't count :-( Not sure now what I missed before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Nice to see you posting again Wayne! BTW:try to count again these hand, I did, and I count 18 everytime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 I dont like the bidding since the diamond fit wasnt found on time, and south didnt know about it when he bid 4NT, but i dont think reaching slam here is a your problem, just bad luck to have your values badly placed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_U_Card Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Very tempting to bid the slam but that HKQ dbltn would make me refuse the slam invitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted November 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I actually think North had a tricky call on his second bid. 3D here would not be forcing, so that leaves: 2NT forcing, but partner will evaluate in the context of 15-17 balanced, not 18-194D absolutely revolting. 3C equally revolting.3NT 18-19 balanced. Admittedly this doesn't get the diamond support across, but then it's more often than not the most likely game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I actually think North had a tricky call on his second bid. 3D here would not be forcing, so that leaves: 2NT forcing, but partner will evaluate in the context of 15-17 balanced, not 18-194D absolutely revolting. 3C equally revolting.3NT 18-19 balanced. Admittedly this doesn't get the diamond support across, but then it's more often than not the most likely game. Of course one could switch the meaning of 2NT and 3NT, which is not standard Acol, but it certainly makes sense. Marlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 You were a bit unlucky that the hands fit so badly.North overbid. He had a pass of 4NT in spite of the diamond support. South's 4NT was quite aggressive. This hand type isn't catered for well in basic Acol (why is this hand in the SAYC and 2/1 discussion?). If you play your 2/1 responses as roughly 9+, as most people do, you can afford to play the 2NT rebid as 15+ balanced & game forcing (or at least forcing for a round). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I actually think North had a tricky call on his second bid. 3D here would not be forcing, so that leaves: 2NT forcing, but partner will evaluate in the context of 15-17 balanced, not 18-19 Given the ♥KQ tight, I don't think that is a problem. If 2NT is GF, it looks perfect to me. If it is forcing one round, it still might be best. Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted November 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 why is this hand in the SAYC and 2/1 discussion? There's been some debate about calling this the Acol/SAYC/2over1 discussion forum, and there isn't an Acol based system (I'm not calling Acol a non-natural system!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 This hand type isn't catered for well in basic Acol (why is this hand in the SAYC and 2/1 discussion?). If you play your 2/1 responses as roughly 9+, as most people do, you can afford to play the 2NT rebid as 15+ balanced & game forcing (or at least forcing for a round). I like to play this style. This frees up 3NT for something else. I use it as a raise of responder's suit with no singleton and too strong for a simple raise. 1M 2m 2NT = 15+ balanced forcing 3NT = good raise of partner's minor NF After responding 2NT sometimes you have to venture to 4NT when responder raises. 1M 2m2NT 3NT4NT Good 18-19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalvan14 Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Most of the fault is with bad luck: duplication of values and mirrored hand.N might have overbid a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 There's been some debate about calling this the Acol/SAYC/2over1 discussion forum, and there isn't an Acol based system (I'm not calling Acol a non-natural system!!) Or at least the "natural system discussion" forum so we can include much more like Fantunes and WJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 ♠ AQT9 ♥ KQ D QJTx ♣ KJx ♠ xxx ♥ Tx D AKxxx ♣ AQx Playing Acol, this is a 1D opening, not a 1S opening. I would suggest 1D 2D inverted2S 3C3H 4D4H 5D Where 2S shows a stopper, no extras, 3C is a c stopper, not C+H, 3H is GF, 4D says not much else, 4H is a slam try and 5D denies S honour Mai bpen rai!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Playing Acol, this is a 1D opening, not a 1S opening. It is? In my very limited understanding of Acol I thought the point was to open the higher of a major-minor 4 - 4 or does that depend who you talk to? Playing weak NT at least you can bid 1♠ - 2♦ - 2NT here: 15+ balanced, don't know why I would have to preempt partner with 18 - 19 bal to 3NT anyway, AND it would be an overbid on this hand. 3NT should be specific, perhaps 5♠332? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Playing Acol, this is a 1D opening, not a 1S opening. It is? In my very limited understanding of Acol I thought the point was to open the higher of a major-minor 4 - 4 or does that depend who you talk to? It depends who you talk to. I'd open it 1S in that style. Playing weak NT at least you can bid 1♠ - 2♦ - 2NT here: 15+ balanced, don't know why I would have to preempt partner with 18 - 19 bal to 3NT anyway, AND it would be an overbid on this hand. 3NT should be specific, perhaps 5♠332? In true basic Acol 1S-2D-2NT = 15-16 balanced, not 15+ and is non-forcing. Welcome to the land of truly light 2/1s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 "In true basic Acol 1S-2D-2NT = 15-16 balanced, not 15+ and is non-forcing. Welcome to the land of truly light 2/1s." I gather Rule of 19 openings are common in ACOL. Are the 9+ 2/1 responses forcing, and if so what do you rebid with a 5224 10 count in the sequence 1S-2D-? Do you have a rebid that is for minimum openers only? Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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