inquiry Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 I know clearly what I will rebid with this hand if I open 1SPADE, yet I was surprised to see how many different rebids occurred in the real world. How would YOU bid this hand. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 I chose 3S, but barely, over 2S. Another day, I would have chosen 2S. I will be interested to read rationales for other bids. To me, 2S and 3S are the only reasonable choices (but then, I'm wrong all the time) :D Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 2S. Don't like the QJ tight and don't really think the S are good enough for 3S.Do not see any point whatsoever in 2C. Why do this with a 6 card suit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 2S. Don't like the QJ tight and don't really think the S are good enough for 3S.Do not see any point whatsoever in 2C. Why do this with a 6 card suit? I didn't explain what I think is the right bid, which I thought I would do after enough votes came in. But since you commented about no point in bidding 2C, I have to admit that I would rebid 2Clubs on this hand without any doubts it is the right bid. As for why, that will wait for a few more votes. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 without any doubts it is the right bid. You might not have any doubts; I certainly do. No doubt you are hoping to get in another bid. That may never happen if pd decides to pass - a prefectly reasonable decision on a weakish 2335, 2245 or similar. You gain over a pass when pd has a s/t S, but this suit is playable opposite a s/ton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 For the same reason as The_Hog I'd bid 2S... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 2c, I don't want to bid 2s with a good hand that can play in 5 different denominations. 2s is too unilateral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 I'm in the 2 Spade rebid camp. I'm also of the opinion that rebidding a 3-card minor is a last resort -- any other descriptive bid is preferable. When I hold a 6-card major, I'm happy to bid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian11374 Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 I think 2S is clear - hiding 6 card majors is rarely a good idea. If you bid 2C, pass, 1D, or 1H by responder could land you in the wrong contract Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Ben - When you give your reasons for 2C, would you say if you would bid 2C at matchpoints as well? From a quick and dirty calculation I made, it seems that there is about a 25%+ chance of 2C being passed by pd, which will likely be a bottom in MPs. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Why will 2s in a 6-1 fit be better than 2c or 3c in a 5-3 or 6-3 fit?If you play that 2d shows 4+cards and 2c can be a doubleton when your pd passes 2c he has 5/6 clubs and a weak hand and you are playing a contract far better than 2s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Luis writes: "Why will 2s in a 6-1 fit be better than 2c or 3c in a 5-3 or 6-3 fit?If you play that 2d shows 4+cards and 2c can be a doubleton when your pd passes 2c he has 5/6 clubs and a weak hand and you are playing a contract far better than 2s. " I play 2C shows 3+. If he passes with 4 (most likely), a 4-3 fit is worse than a 6-1 fit. Additionally, if you can make 2 at both contracts (not a bad chance, given the hand), +110 loses to +90. Generally, Luis, I will take a major suit over minor suit part score contract at matchpoints, if the odds of making are even close. Regardless of the merits of this particular deal, is this a bad approach? Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Ok, the poll makes it fairly clear the "contest" for the "right" bid is between 2S and 2C. First, let's make sure we have a reason for not making the other bids. 2NT is out, as that should show 18 to 19 hcp (too good for opening 1NT). 3NT is out because that should show a solid, running spade suit and good values. 3S should be out, because that all but forcing, and as The_Hog said, this hand is no where near strong enough for that bid. So the question seems to be when is it "right" to rebid a three card minor when holding a six card major after a forcing Notrump. First, I will rebid the 6 card major over 1NT... if...a) I am minimum or with 6322 (3 other major) and slightly more than minimum.:) With a side four card minor and a minimum, I will STILL rebid 2 MAJOR as long as the suit quality is sufficient to play opposite a singleton. ok.. so when will I choose a minor over the 2M rebid? The answer is hands exaclty like this. A hand not strong enough to make an absolute forcing bid or a jump to 3M, but too good to give a minimum major rebid. So I rebid my 3/4 card minor. Now why? and would I do this at matchpoint (peter's question). First, yes, I would do this at matchpoint. As for the why, it improves your constructive bidding, and still, as luis points out, allows you to play some superior minor suit partscores when they are available and partner is significantly broke. Here is how this works. Responder NEVER passes 2m with 2 cards in the major and 4 in the minor. And at matchpoints, tends not to pass 2m with 2 cards in M and 5 cards in the minor. In fact, the way I play, pass is very rare response indeed after 2m, as opener can have very good hand for 2m response. If responder has a good holding in opener's minor or a side suit, a rebid is required rather 2M, 3m, or 2x. This gives opener a chance to show his hand more accurately if (as normal) responder makes another call over 2m. Opener can rebid 2NT with 15-17, raise partners 2M raise to 3S, or simple bid games if good fit m fit is found (or make a forcing bid in a new suit). So on this hand, I would rebid 2C planning on bidding 2NT over 2 of red suit (if not playing BART), and to raise 2S to 2S, or to bid 3S over 3C raise (or maybe make a direct 3NT try with 3H bid). Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Maybe I'm dense (I've missed things before)... I really don't understand the arguments for bidding a 3-card minor rather than rebidding a 6-card major. If someone really wants to convince me that it can possibly be right, then run a simulation and point out to me how it shows this to be the correct action. Keep in mind the variety of hands. Also, if I rebid in a 3-card minor, will partner EVER believe I have a 6-card major (if I'm not dropped in a 4-3 fit when we have a 6-1 or even a 6-2 fit in the major). Yes, one can almost always construct hands where a given action can be the winning one. However, the real test is how OFTEN the action wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Ben writes: "3S should be out, because that all but forcing, and as The_Hog said, this hand is no where near strong enough for that bid." I chose 3S over 2S, barely. However, I don't play 3S as "all but forcing" - it's just an invitation, albeit with at least an OK 6 card suit. My book (25 Steps to Learning 2/1, by Paul Thurston) says 3S requires 15-18 hcp, and should be passed by a responder with less than 9 hcp, and accepted with 9 or more. Is this what you mean by "all but forcing", or do you treat 3S differently? Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 The QJ of Ds do not pull their weight and the H and C honors are not supported. As a result I downgrade this hand, Peter. With AQTxxx AQJ Kx xxx I would bid 3S. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 A couple of poster specific responses. To Peter, when I said a jump to 3S was almost forcing, a better choice of words would be strongly invintational. This hand is not up to those standards. But if it is any consulation to you for your 3S bid, I will end up in 3S a lot of times. For instance, after my 2C bid if partner bids 2S, I will rebid 3S. This is "weaker" than the immediate jump to 3S, but at least I a know I am looking at a 6-2 fit at worse when I bid 3S after the potentially false preference, and partner will know I have a nice hand, something like what I hold here, and not a good one like what Ron drew up. To John, I am not sure anyone is going to want to convince you that responding in a 3 card minor can ever be right when holding a six card major. I mean, everyone has to find a structure that they can live with. And as I said to hgorthar who wanted me do simulations to show how one bid is better than another, I wouldn't try to do that even if I knew how, which I don't. I will say this, I use to ALWAYS rebid 2M or 3M when holding a six card major after forcing 1NT on the logic you proposed, but since switching to the newer appoach, I have found I am getting better results. Perhaps an interesting place to begin a discussion of this topic might be a series of post in the forum dating back about six months where this topic was raised by YZERMAN (an alternative name of a well known bbo player), in part because these views very closely parallel mie, (and basically only I responded these issues at that time they were raised). The first was entitled "Requirements for Rebids After (1M-1N)". In this thread, Yzerman formulated in a single post the basic rules that I also happen to also follow (we do have a few very slight disagreement). http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...t=msg409#msg409 Two interesting follow up to this thread, for which I was either the only responder (so far), or for which it the comments were buried in a longer thread were added by yzerman. The first outlines in a little more detail the responsibilities of the 1NT bidder after 1M-1NT-2m (and shows, John, why you would never play in a 4-3m fit with a 6-2 M fit available (your first concern). This post is at: http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...t=msg353#msg353 The other "thread" (hardly fair to call it a thread since not a single person responded by Yzerman was entitled "6 card Majors after 1NT forcing?" and can be found at http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...t=msg300#msg300 Although no one responded to thos EXCELLENT post, I never responded either since I agreed with it almost entirely (and it quoted me anyway). Maybe for those who think bidding a 3 card minor with a 6 card major is always wrong, these three links (plus my response above), might be a fair starting place to consider at least the possibility that there might be some merit to this approach. And for those who worry about playing in the 2minor to much, finally I refer you to Fred's improving 2/1 auction part III article (available at the bridgebase.com site or in the BBO library. Here he showed a hand... Kx Axx xxx Jxxxx and after 1S=1NT; 2C he correctly recommends that responder bids 2S. But what would that hand do opposite a 2S response over 1NT on this very hand? Anyway, if you have never heard of, or never considered, rebidding a 3 card minor when holding a 6 card major after 1NT forcing, maybe some of this will at least give you thngs to consider even if you eventually decide your approach is right for you after all. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 in the hand from fred's article, 2S is correct because of the spade king... since bidding 2C after 1NT (instead of 2S) <usually> shows 5 spades and at least 3 clubs, i'm not sure responder should bid 2S over 3C holding Jxxxx in clubs and xx in spades (at imps anyway)... i agree with whoever made the statement about pard ever thinking you had 6 spades.. even if i became convince opener held 6 spades, i'd then think he had to hold at least 4 clubs for his 2C bid yes, hands can be constructed where 2C is the best bid, and yes if i'm xx in spades and have 4 clubs i'm going back to spades, but that still doesn't mean 2C can't be passed, and it still doesn't answer the question about which bid is best <in the long haul> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 [...snip...]To John,[...snip...]The first was entitled "Requirements for Rebids After (1M-1N)". In this thread, Yzerman formulated in a single post the basic rules that I also happen to also follow (we do have a few very slight disagreement). http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...t=msg409#msg409 Two interesting follow up to this thread, for which I was either the only responder (so far), or for which it the comments were buried in a longer thread were added by yzerman. The first outlines in a little more detail the responsibilities of the 1NT bidder after 1M-1NT-2m (and shows, John, why you would never play in a 4-3m fit with a 6-2 M fit available (your first concern). This post is at: http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...t=msg353#msg353 The other "thread" (hardly fair to call it a thread since not a single person responded by Yzerman was entitled "6 card Majors after 1NT forcing?" and can be found at http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...t=msg300#msg300 Although no one responded to thos EXCELLENT post, I never responded either since I agreed with it almost entirely (and it quoted me anyway). Maybe for those who think bidding a 3 card minor with a 6 card major is always wrong, these three links (plus my response above), might be a fair starting place to consider at least the possibility that there might be some merit to this approach. [...snip...]BenThanks Ben for the links. I just finished browsing them. Surprisingly, I now feel there is some merit to rebidding a 3-card minor with a 6-card major. I still feel strongly, though, that it would have to be a pretty crappy 6-card suit to warrant doing so and am not totally convinced one shouldn't just rebid the 6-bagger. Thanks for taking the time to list the links. They were interesting reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 Apologies to all. I didn't really give my reasoning in the previous post. If responder, the 1NT bidder, will always bid 2 of the M holding xx after a minor suit rebid by opener, then the only danger of rebidding 2m is missing a 6-1 and playing in a (possibly) inferior minor suit fit (I'm assuming 6-1 will usually play better than 4-3). I play "Constructive" raises, so partner will go through 1NT with any minimum raise to 2. With the two regular partners that I play this, it is normal to "take a preference" to the major with xx. Maybe I'll start eating my words, yet it still seems so wrong to rebid a 3-card minor when holding a 6-card major! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 Note added to the rebid of 2m with a six card minor. In this months's ACBL Bulletin (october 2003) on page 31 is a bidding contest between Ron Smith/B. Cohen versus Hugh Ross/Grant Blaze. Hand three Smith and Ross held... S-AQJTS-AK8743D-voidC-963 Both opened 1H, both heard a forcing 1NT response, and yes, both rebid 2C (as I would). The commentator said about this initial response... "No, these auctions are not misprints... 2H woud clearly be an unbid, while 2S and 3H would be overstatements." Exactly the kind of hand I recommended rebidding 2m over 1NT. This doesn't prove the 2m is right, just showing that others use this same logic...even some very good players. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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