My views, your views, our views

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=e&v=e&s=saqj9h4d874ckj953]133|100|Scoring: IMP

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1♣ ?[/hv]

 

 

My views: Since the publication of Lawrence's "Overcalls", the great unwashed have been going further and further away from the original concept as discussed by Lawrence.

 

If I remember correctly, the posted hand is not one that Lawrence advocated bidding 1S - rather he stressed that with length in the opened suit that quick stoppers were the key - something like KQJx, x, xxx, AK10xx. However, it seems that nowadays many look upon the posted hand as an almost automatic 1S.

 

I feel this is a poor choice. Successful competetive bidding relies on known length fits - LOTT bases itself on fits - not that LOTT is an endall but certainly a reasonable starting place. With 4-card suits being bid willy-nilly, it seems that one loses a lot (or is that loses LOTT?) in knowing how strongly to compete, even with a 4-card fit opposite.

 

IMO, the case made for the four-card overcall was that it was rare but at times a valuable tool - I can buy that; what I don't buy is overuse.

 

What are your views?

[ArcLight]

Winston,

I'm not sure I understand what you meant by

 

"If I remember correctly, the posted hand is not one that Lawrence advocated bidding 1S - rather he stressed that with length in the opened suit that quick stoppers were the key - something like KQJx, x, xxx, AK10xx. However, it seems that nowadays many look upon the posted hand as an almost automatic 1S."

 

What does length and stoppers in Clubs have to do with this hand?

 

What are the alternatives?

1NT - with the club stoppers and length - but not enough HCP, so I wouldn't make this bid.

 

Pass - could work, pard may be long in Hearts and they have a misfit or get too high in Spades. With a Heart ruff and Spade K on the Right you can take 4 Spades against their Spade contract. Your clubs are over the opening bidder, but they still might not have full value.

 

1 Spade - I'd rather the KJ be in a suit RHO didnt bid. You do want a Spade lead, and if pard hase Spades maybe you can make something. This also preempts West from bidding hearts or diamonds at the 1 level. The danger is you have no where to run if doubled. Diamonds with a 5-3 fit at the 2 level?

 

 

I'm no expert, but I don't think you will get burned too many times bidding 1 Spade at the 1 level. Down 3 doubled is worth less than their game, and for that to happen they must have a lot of power. Down 1 doubled = thier part score.

Down 2 doubled is bad, giving up an extra 4 IMPS, but thats not a disaster.

[hrothgar]

I think that the comments regarding the "Law" are somewhat naive.

 

Claiming that 4 card overcalls mess up your LTT calculations are patently false. While it is certainly true that 5+3 =8, it should be noted that 4+4 is also equal to 8. More precisely, an appropriate advance style should complete your overcall methods.

 

As always, its important to note that the opponents are also able to apply the Law. The same precision that permits you to bid to 2♠ on your 8 card fit also allows the opponents to find their 3♦ sacrifice. I firmly believe that imprecision/uncertainty is often an advantage in competitive bidding situtations.

 

Finally, overcall structures should completement your preferred bidding style. I strongly prefer 4 card major opening styles and like declaring 2M on 4-3 fits. It should come as little surprise that I'm happy using a similar overcall style.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Overcalling regular with 4 card's will not reduce

the ability to use the LAW.

 

Partner should still compete to the 3 level with four

card support.

Now 4+4 is only 8, but a 4-4 fit will usually play better

than a 5-3 fit.

This means, you may be "unlawful" competing

to the 3 level, but the "unlawfulness" is not that great,

... at least I believe in this statement.

 

In the context of the LTC, there exists a recommendation

from Klinger:

He says, the LTC works best with 5-4 and 6-3 fits,

but works also reasonable with 4-4.

But if one has a 5-3 fit, one should add a looser.

 

Another proponent of four card overcalls is Miles,

he also advocates 5-4 Michaels Cue Bids.

Partner should only got to the 3 level with 4 card

support, ... and of course he should.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

... and dont forget assumed fit methods,

e.g. the Jammer 2D opening, you may get

to the 3 level on a 4-4 fit.

[mike777]

GEEZ if only my partner's one spade overcalls were this good.

[MickyB]

I share your scepticism for 4 card overcalls. If partner makes a preemptive raise on his 4 card support and a singleton club you better make it, because the opponents won't have anything on.

 

I've got more time for frequent 4 card overcalls, then partner knows not to preempt so aggressively opposite. Something like Overcall Structure, maybe?

[P_Marlowe]

I share your scepticism for 4 card overcalls. If partner makes a preemptive raise on his 4 card support and a singleton club you better make it, because the opponents won't have anything on.

 

I've got more time for frequent 4 card overcalls, then partner knows not to preempt so aggressively opposite. Something like Overcall Structure, maybe?

But they may have a heart partial, and they wont have

the trumps to dbl you.

 

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

I think that hadn sia bit weak for a 4 card overcall, give me jsut the ♦Q and it will be ok.

[Winstonm]

Winston,

I'm not sure I understand what you meant by

 

"If I remember correctly, the posted hand is not one that Lawrence advocated bidding 1S - rather he stressed that with length in the opened suit that quick stoppers were the key - something like KQJx, x, xxx, AK10xx. However, it seems that nowadays many look upon the posted hand as an almost automatic 1S."

 

What does length and stoppers in Clubs have to do with this hand?

 

What are the alternatives?

1NT - with the club stoppers and length - but not enough HCP, so I wouldn't make this bid.

 

Pass -  could work, pard may be long in Hearts and they have a misfit or get too high in Spades.  With a Heart ruff and Spade K on the Right you can take 4 Spades against their Spade contract.  Your clubs are over the opening bidder, but they still might not have full value.

 

1 Spade - I'd rather the KJ be in a suit RHO didnt bid.  You do want a Spade lead, and if pard hase Spades maybe you can make something.  This also preempts West from bidding hearts or diamonds at the 1 level.  The danger is you have no where to run if doubled.  Diamonds with a 5-3 fit at the 2 level?

 

 

I'm no expert, but I don't think you will get burned too many times bidding 1 Spade at the 1 level.  Down 3 doubled is worth less than their game, and for that to happen they must have a lot of power.  Down 1 doubled = thier part score.

Down 2 doubled is bad, giving up an extra 4 IMPS, but thats not a disaster.

I'm relying strictly on memory here, so don't take it too seriously, and I haven't looked at "Overcalls" since its initial release, but from what I remember the basis for holding fast tricks in opener's suit was twofold: first, it made the hand a much better overall: QJ109, x, xxx, AK10xx is a better hand than AKJx, x, xxx, QJxxx.

Second, by controlling the long suit there is less risk of quick ruffs when LHO is short.

 

Keep in mind that when Lawrence wrote "Overcalls" 4-card suit overcalls were simply not made, and he argued that on certain hand types it was riskier to pass than to bid, even with only a 4-card suit. A strong reason to bid being a strong hand; a strong hand by definition is one with shape, a chunky four-card suit, and rapid control of the enemy's suit: KQ109, x, Ax, AQ10xx. For most but a select elite, this hand over 1C had always been a pass; Lawrence argued that 1S was the best bid on this hand.

 

If memory serves me correctly....... ;)

 

Winston

[Winstonm]

I think that the comments regarding the "Law" are somewhat naive.

 

Claiming that 4 card overcalls mess up your LTT calculations are patently false.  While it is certainly true that 5+3 =8, it should be noted that 4+4 is also equal to 8.  More precisely, an appropriate advance style should complete your overcall methods.

 

As always, its important to note that the opponents are also able to apply the Law.  The same precision that permits you to bid to 2♠ on your 8 card fit also allows the opponents to find their 3♦ sacrifice.  I firmly believe that imprecision/uncertainty is often an advantage in competitive bidding situtations. 

 

Finally, overcall structures should completement your preferred bidding style.  I strongly prefer 4 card major opening styles and like declaring 2M on 4-3 fits.  It should come as little surprise that I'm happy using a similar overcall style.

I can't disagree that it makes life harder when you are unsure of a known fit - some of my poorest results have come when I balanced against an auction such as this: 1C-P-1S-P-2S-P-P-X, and the opps only held a Moysian in spades.

 

However, LOTT is based on total tricks, unlike LTC, so when holding xxxx of partner's overcalled suit a LOTT advocate would surely wish to know if the combined holdings were either 8-card or 9-card. It is true that the application of LOTT requires estimation in the first place, but to add a further degree of randomness makes it less accurate, not more so.

 

A further problem IMO of overcalling frequently on four-card suits is that the short hand can't be sure when to take action, such as. Qxx, x, Axxx, K9xxx. 1H-1S-3H-?. I know I'd be awfully nervous about bidding 3S here if partner frequently overcalled 1S on AK10x.

 

All this being said, there is certainly a valid point in somewhat random action being the most difficult with which to deal - both as opponent and partner.

 

Winston

[mikeh]

1♠ looks right to me. I would pass (I think) only if in 3rd seat red v white, when the upside opposite a passed partner with an unlimited LHO is not worth the risk of 1♠ going for 800+.

 

The more bidding space my overcall takes, the more aggressive I want to be. Even intermediate players usually get to the right spot in uncontested auctions. In fact, the stronger the opps, the more I want to bid in these situations.

 

Change my ♠'s to ♦'s and I will be passing far more often, since 1♦ actually increases their bidding flexibility rather than decreasing it: they gain a two-suited negative double, thus responder can show both majors with one bid if need be.

 

Similar reasoning makes me overcall 2♣ after a 1♦ openng on suits and hands with which I would pass a major suit opening.

 

I don't think that the average player gives enough attention to factors such as bidding space or (in the play) tempo.

[luke warm]

this looks like an almost automatic 1S overcall to me

[Robert]

Hello Winstonm

 

Lawrence wrote his book on overcalls, however, I do not believe that it dominates

the majority thinking for overcalls in todays game.

 

He writes well and I think very highly of his books.

 

I do not play all of his methods or style of bidding.

 

Many of the great unwashed do not know what they are doing.

 

I saw one player read that you should overcall a 4 card suit with length in the opened suit. He started overcalling 4 card suits at the two level with lenght in RHOs opening bid. He often got away with this bidding. Occasionally the roof fell in. :)

 

If you want an interesting non standard view about overcalls try Marshal Mile's recent books on competitive bidding. Those are a real eye opener. I would not play all of his mehtods, however, they are interesting.

 

Warning, do not let small children see some of his overcall examples. It might scar them for life.

 

Regarding overcalling a semi solid 4 card suit "at the one level" If partner does not have a death wish, you are fairly safe.

 

Sometimes the roof does 'fall in' on a thread bare overcall. I once overcalled an opening 3C bid with AQ10xxx and 16 total HCPs and went for 1,100. :)

 

Regards,

Robert

[Kalvan14]

It sounds like a philosophical discussion about the first mover, but I would not be so dramatic, after all :)

1♠ overcall gives a decent lead to pard, starts to put a stake on the spades suit (which is always a good thing, carries some pre-emption.

While I do not go out of my way to overcall a 4-card suit at every other hand, IMHO there is no problem in making the 1♠ call on this specific hand.

I would add that it is generally a good thing to harass a bit oppos' auction

[Guest Jlall]

I'm a big believer in 4 card overcalls, especially when it's spades. 1S "preempts" them, gets my lead director in, helps find a spade game if there is one out, helps push them up etc. These bids just seem to work out well for me in the long run, even against good opposition, regardless of theory.

[Finch]

I almost never make 4-card overcalls, but this one is tempting.

Make partner a passed hand, and at matchpoints I'm tempted by a 2S overcall.

[pclayton]

Overcall 1♠ and don't sweat it. Occasionally you go for an undesirable number but my experience is that the lead direction and being able to compete for the partscore outweigh the risks.

 

Don't get too excited about these decisions. There's not that much 'theory' here, although I do agree with the QT's in RHO's suit being desirable.

 

Learn to make the call and live with it.

[Gerben42]

Looks like a great 1♠ overcall.

 

1. You want a ♠ lead

 

2. If partner makes a preemptive raise you can try for a cross ruff, this works because of the "Bomhof compensation". Partner will be short in the suit that is long behind him, and you are short in the suits that are long behind you. This means no overruffs during your Xruff.

[Robert]

Hello Winstonm

 

The Blue Team won many championships while they also overcalled with fairly weak four card suits. K10xx

 

The Blue Team overcall style that I used to play was 3-12HCP overcalls and it often was bid on weakish 4 card overcalls at the one level starting at K10xx.

 

Playing Italian style overcalls of years gone by, you double with most 12/13+HCP hands and overcall with about 8-12HCP. You can sometimes bid with less values.

 

Reese gave the 'off shape double' style a test of about a years time and found it to be playable. You just do not get excited when the overcall only shows @8-12HCP.

 

The Blue Squad also played 'off shape' take out doubles(which almost all American and most other writers claim are bad bids) while they ran off a long series of World Championship wins.

 

One of the all time great Blue Team members still plays (on O.K. Bridge)

his CC says often 4 card overcalls and the range is fairly light.

 

Lawrence wrote his overcall book many years after the Blue Team had amassed a series of World Championship wins.

 

I would overcall 1S with the example hand. My overcall ranges and suit quality has both had peaks and valleys. At one time I played 12+ at the one level and good five+ card suits. Now I am reduced to an 8+HCP range with even fair suits.

My 4 card overcalls tend to show fairly good 4 carders and opening(or near opening) bid values.

 

Regards,

Robert

[kenrexford]

A wildly e3nthusiastic endorser of 4-card overcalls into a spade suit, I nonetheless do not like 1S on this hand. I, too, am impressed by lead issues, but I do not buy the lead-direction thoughts as inducing a spade overcall. Actually, 1S likely yields a NegX, transferring the likely heart contract to Opener, making me on lead, and I hate that. If my spades were KQJ, AKQ, AKJ, or KQ10, I do not mind leading a spade, but AQJ risks a bad transfer. With better clubs for the lead, I could better overcall, as well. I'd even like (love) AJxx or KJxx better, if I use Rosenkranz of Reverse Rosenkranz XX.

 

If 2C were natural (weird, but possible), I'd overcall 2C because I like a club lead also and am less concerned about the NegX, and because of additional preemption.

 

It also seems to me that I am ready to handle a typical auction. After 1C-P-1H-P-2H, I would expect 2S to show 4S/5C with my reg. partner. Overcalling 1S removes this neat auction to get to a plausible best spot of 3C.

 

Thus, I dislike 1S. Shorten the clubs, or change the honors, and I love 4-card overcalls in spades (if I have a lead). But, this suffers too many reasons against the overcall.

[Winstonm]

Hello Winstonm

 

The Blue Team won many championships while they also overcalled with fairly weak four card suits.  K10xx

 

The Blue Team overcall style that I used to play was 3-12HCP overcalls and it often was bid on weakish 4 card overcalls at the one level starting at K10xx.

 

Playing Italian style overcalls of years gone by, you double with most 12/13+HCP hands and overcall with about 8-12HCP.  You can sometimes bid with less values.

 

Reese gave the 'off shape double' style a test of about a years time and found it to be playable.  You just do not get excited when the overcall only shows @8-12HCP.

 

The Blue Squad also played 'off shape' take out doubles(which almost all American and most other writers claim are bad bids) while they ran off a long series of World Championship wins.

 

One of the all time great Blue Team members still plays (on O.K. Bridge)

his CC says often 4 card overcalls and the range is fairly light. 

 

Lawrence wrote his overcall book many years after the Blue Team had amassed a series of World Championship wins.

 

I would overcall 1S with the example hand.  My overcall ranges and suit quality has both had peaks and valleys.  At one time I played 12+ at the one level and good five+ card suits.  Now I am reduced to an 8+HCP range with even fair suits.

My 4 card overcalls tend to show fairly good 4 carders and opening(or near opening) bid values.

 

Regards,

Robert

Hi, Robert,

 

I actually used something similar on a lark once - an old kibitzer rumored to be a retired eccentric attorney kept harping about the Italian system so we decided to call his bluff and asked how to play it.

 

We ended up with this: All 12 point hands, regardless of holdings, made a takeout double. Responding to the double was an exclusion bid. Overcalls were maximum of 11. We had to alert a pass as "less than 12 HCP."

 

I don't know if it was the surprise element or what, but we crushed everyone for about 2 weeks until the director decided it wasn't in his best interest to let us play this anymore.....but is sure was fun to have auctions like this:

 

1D-X-P-2C* *shortest suit.

P-2D-P-P

P????

 

Winston