Picture Jumped out of Slam

[Echognome]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sak7h83d54cakjt32&s=sqj852hkqjt9dajtc]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♠ - 2♣*

2♥ - 4♠**

All Pass[/hv]

* Game Forcing

** 3+♠, 5+♣, no controls outside spades and clubs

 

Should South go on?

 

If so, couldn't North have AKx xx KQJxx xx?

 

If not, how could North and South bid these hands better?

[Chamaco]

Picture bid was fine IMO.

However, perhaps responder is a bit strong for a jump to 4S, and maybe a 3S bid would have helped. showing genuine slam interest.

 

I think opener should go on anyways after 4S.

5♣ would be my choice if it was agreed as EKB, otherwise I'd just close my eyes and bid plain RKB.

 

We can be set in 5S, but I think it's easier to construct slammish hands than construct hands where 5S goes down after we ask for keycards.

[Echognome]

As an aside, as a treatment, does a picture jump deny outside shortness? If so, the hand shapes are quite limited here: 3(23)5, 3226, or 4225 are the only possibilities.

[Chamaco]

As an aside, as a treatment, does a picture jump deny outside shortness? If so, the hand shapes are quite limited here: 3(23)5, 3226, or 4225 are the only possibilities.

 

Yes, all picture jumps TO GAME deny side controls (including shortness), therefore only the shapes you mention.

Because picture jumps take away so much space, they must be well defined, e.g. partner must know that we miss the side controls.

 

However, if a picture jump is done at the 3-level, it shows good suits, slamgoing hand, but does not deny a side control.

[whereagles]

Side shortness of a pic jump:

 

in theory NO

in practice YES, otherwise you would never use the bid

[inquiry]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sak7h83d54cakjt32&s=sqj852hkqjt9dajtc]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♠ - 2♣*

2♥ - 4♠**

All Pass[/hv]

* Game Forcing

** 3+♠, 5+♣, no controls outside spades and clubs

 

Should South go on?

 

If so, couldn't North have AKx xx KQJxx xx?

 

If not, how could North and South bid these hands better?

Actually, 2♣ WAS NOT game force when this hand was played (just for the record, as it doesn;t change anything), and didn't even promise clubs. And 2H showed (in theory) a very minimum hand with 4+ hearts

 

4♠ was picture jump and showed 3226 or 4225 with no control in the red suits.

 

Yes, i would bid on, partner has shown enough for game with at most the diamond Q (you know he has no Heart ACE honor at all. His hand has to be almost surely be AKx(x) xx xx AKxxx(x). At the very worse it will be AQJ in clubs.

[Echognome]

Ben, I knew that 2♣ was not GF. I didn't know 2♥ showed a minimum. However, I thought the question interesting not from how it was bid, but what inferences should be drawn. I didn't think it important to get into the particulars of a specific system, but rather as a general style question in 2/1.

[kenrexford]

The five-level should be safe. So, Opener should be able to ask for info. The way I play, the cheapest relay after a picture jump (here 4NT) asks Responder about his suit, in steps, as to which honor is missing. 5H would say "missing the Queen," and 6S is bid. (5C=Ace missing, 5D=King, etc.)

[luis]

Just bad luck, an unfortunate coincidence, I think South can't go on over 4♠ he knows he is going to lose the heart ace and on a diamond lead which is marked he needs to be able to discard 2 diamonds and pick up the trumps so he needs exactly AK AK in the black suits in pd's hand and I doubt that is a high percentage action.

[kenrexford]

This is not unlucky. Worst case, Responder has AKx-xx-xxx-KQJxx. In that event, on a heart lead, Declarer eventually gains the lead, cross to spade King, ruffing finesse. This makes slam whenever the club Ace is well-placed and clubs not 6-2. 4NT asking for club quality is a hedge only and perhaps unnecessary.

[Guest Jlall]

I would bid 3S with the north hand. It shows the same hand as 4S but better. North has a very strong hand, and could have a K less for the same bidding. Picture jumps (especially double jumps) are supposed to be very well defined, and it is hard to bid accurately if the range is that wide.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I prefer 3S to 4S, but I dont play picture jumbs.

 

3S should show 3 card support, a 5 card club suit

and slam interest, but it wont help you here.

Opener can bid 3NT (?!) / 4D over which responder

will still bid only 4S, i.e. Opener is similar placed and has

to decide, if he makes a move or not.

 

On the other hand, I would not worry to much,

because from opners side, the club values are

wasted, so unless you want to go for dream

cards (responder has those), Pass 4S.

 

Marlowe

[Chamaco]

Hi,

 

I prefer 3S to 4S, but I dont play picture jumbs.

 

3S should show 3 card support, a 5 card club suit

and slam interest, but it wont help you here.

Opener can bid 3NT (?!) / 4D over which responder

will still bid only 4S,

No over 4D I would bid 4♥ = LTTC, showing slam interest with problem in hearts.

[mike777]

This picture bidding looks too complicated for whatever hands it gains on.

 

Glad I can just bid a simple 2S slam try here.

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sak7h83d54cakjt32&s=sqj852hkqjt9dajtc]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♠ - 2♣*

2♥ - 4♠**

All Pass[/hv]

* Game Forcing

** 3+♠, 5+♣, no controls outside spades and clubs

 

Should South go on?

 

If so, couldn't North have AKx xx KQJxx xx?

 

If not, how could North and South bid these hands better?

4S is wrong I believe. For this 4S, it shows exact 4-2-2-5, pure hands, and around 14 HCP. Also, AAKK are probably too strong for it. a typical holding is:

SAQJx Hxx Dxx CAQJxx or AKxx xx xx KQJxx

AKx xx xx AKJTxx is just too good for 4S bid. Also, you may not even belong to sp slam if partner happens to hold SQxxxx Ax Axx Qxx

[whereagles]

Just bad luck, an unfortunate coincidence, I think South can't go on over 4♠ he knows he is going to lose the heart ace and on a diamond lead which is marked he needs to be able to discard 2 diamonds and pick up the trumps so he needs exactly AK AK in the black suits in pd's hand and I doubt that is a high percentage action.

Agree. Of course it's easy to make up excuses like "North had more than a pic bid" to find a scapegoat, but truth is North's bidding is very descriptive and South's pass to 4♠ completely reasonably.

 

The sort of slam you should only bid if you need a top or some imps.

[kenrexford]

Partner's clubs are probably AKJxx, AQJxx, or KQJxx.

 

Opposite AKJxx, 6S is cold, unless spades are 5-0.

 

Opposite AQJxx, 5S is cold also, and 6S on a ruffing finesse usually.

 

Opposite KQJxx, 5S is pretty cold also, if partner has a doubleton diamond, and 6S makes on a ruffing finesse, usually.

 

So, 5S is as safe as you can ever suppose in the real world. What is this great fear all about? Perhaps you have no agreements of what next after Picture Jumps? How much sense does that make? We agree to use a very precise treatment and yet have no idea what to do next? Why use Picture Jumps if there is no follow-up agreement?

 

In other words, if you must assume the worst, with no ability to ask for better, then a Picture Jump better show precisely KQJxx or it is a dumb bid.

[han]

I also thought that picture jumps are usually made with 4-card support and fairly minimal hands. So AKx xx xx AKJ10xx seems to be off for two reasons. I don't think that picture jumps should be made on a wide variety of hands.

[Kalvan14]

While I do agree that the hand is a bit too strong for a picture jump (♣ are too good - or you have an extra ♠K), from the point of view of N it si fair enough:

S has neither the A♥, nor ♦K. He might have AK, AK in the black suits (100% slam), or A AKQ or maybe AK AQJ.

Best bid is 4NT (RKC: 3 kc are quite fair for N: they are AK in spades and A♣).

After which I would bid 6♠.

[Double !]

I can't resist, but the bidding dinosaur in me is roaring and pressing to emerge. So, just as a side-thought (said with tongue only slightly in cheek):

 

How much easier would the bidding have been playing strong jump-shifts? (Daggone it, stop throwing eggs and stones at me!!)

1S-3C-3H-3S makes life a lot easier for opener, or so it would seem.

 

BTW: I don't agree with the jump to 4S on the original bidding that was given. I agree with hannie that this should shows 4-card trump support. I believe the 2S is sufficient at this point in the bidding. The big difference between an initial 2C response and a 3C J-S is, IMO, that 3C will emphasize a good quality club suit that will be a source of tricks. 2C doesn't quite do this.

 

DHL

[Dwingo]

Digressing a little bit, but still in the same sequence, can one of you help me in understanding the standard meaning in a 2 /1 Game Force bidding style the following sequences

 

1) 1♠ - 2♣ : 2♥ - 2♠

 

2) 1♠ - 2♣ : 2♥ - 3♠

 

3) 1♠ - 2♣ : 2♥ - 4♠

 

The terminology " Picture bids" confuses me. Can anyone care to elaborate?

 

Thanks in advance to all of you will throw light.

 

Godwin

[WrecksVee]

"Picture bids" means to use jumps to show features about your hand. This is unlike "fast arrival" where a higher jump is used to show a weak hand.

 

Playing 2/1 GF with Jacoby 2NT, invitational jump shifts at the three level and two tiered splinters I define these bids asa follows:

 

1) 1♠ - 2♣ : 2♥ - 2♠ mostly three card support for all hands not covered below

 

2) 1♠ - 2♣ : 2♥ - 3♠ four card support, 5+ good clubs, a mild slam try sp there should be at least one control in the unbid suits

 

3) 1♠ - 2♣ : 2♥ - 4♠ Minimum hand with most values in the bid suits AND no control of either unbid suit

 

This is not my invention but is recommended in Steve Robinson's "Washington Standard". While (3) covers a lost of ground, there is a lot of room. As both partners are unlimited either could be wanting to make a slam try. By staying low there is room to handle this for either hand. Note that Hardy in "2/1 GF Revised - Expanded" also played (3) as defined above but used (2) as a more general slam try. Hardy does specifically define this as an exception to fast arrival.

 

"Picture bids" are more complicated than fast arrival as you have to agree on what feature is shown. For example (2) could just as well be a slam try showing strong trump support or a general slam try as per Hardy.

[WrecksVee]

Using the methods I described in my previous post I think this is a reasonable auction for the hands that started this thread:

 

1♠-2♣-2♥-2♠*-3♦**-3♠***-?****

 

* four quick tricks and six LTC is too strong for a jump to 4♠ even though the red suits are uncontrolled.

 

** I chose this natural call as it shows where at least twelve of openers cards are located. Certainly other methods are possible. Opener with all side suits controlled and five LTC is worth a slam try.

 

*** Bidding only three shows interest sort of like fast arrival but it denies a heart control.

 

**** the follow up depends on partnership tools and agreements. E.g. if 5♣ is exclusion RKCB for spades that shows one key card missing so that six can be bid. THe important thing is that the partnership had the room to exchange further information about extra strenght and controls.