Awkward rebid

[mikeh]

2♣

 

I don't mind 3♣ on nice 15's but one has to have a good suit: 3♣ often leads to 3N. Partner should be comfortable bidding 3N with a solitary ♦ stopper if looking at Qx♣, for example.

 

With poor suit quality, go for the conservative bid.

 

As for 2♥: there is no need to rush into the major yet. 2♣ does not rule out playing in ♥, but 2♥ eliminates playing in ♣.

 

If we have a future on this hand, it will be because partner will make a move. If he bids 2N or 3♣, I have an easy 3♥: showing 6♣, 3♥, and the values to accept an invite. If he makes a stronger move, I will be delighted to co-operate in any plans he may have, rather than feeling worried that i have overstated and/or misdescribed my hand earlier.

 

The only downside is playing a 6-1 (or 6-0) 2♣ when he has a weak hand with 5+♥.

 

As for 1♠: count me out. It is never a good idea to make a natural bid in an auction where a raise is the last thing you want to hear. You are never going to recover from 1♠ if he fits ♠, and never going to convince partner that you are 3=3=1=6: if you ever do bid out your shape, he will play you for 4=3=1=5. Why lie to partner in a constructive auction?? I have never understood the temptation to make such bids: bridge is a partnership game.

 

Finally, I am not one of those who opens 1♣ with a 10 count and a 6 card suit :P Ok, A109x xx x AQ109xx: yes I might open 1♣, but if you think this is a 10 count, I suggest you change valuation methods.

[mike777]

Interesting that many of the same people who like to open ten-counts with six-card clubs at the one-level are rebidding 2♣. Isn't game pretty good opposite any of these hands:

 

xx

AJTxx

xxx

xxx

 

xx

Axxxx

Axx

xxx

 

xxxx

JTxxx

xx

Ax

 

I wouldn't expect partner to do anything but pass 2♣ with any of those hands. It seems very easy to miss a game after the 2♣ call, which (while it may have a wide range) could certainly be an ace weaker.

 

On the other hand, 3♣ is unlikely to miss a game, and you will probably find your heart fit as long as partner isn't passing 3♣. Notice that despite the weak spots, you have a fair chance to make 3♣ opposite:

 

Qxx

Jxxx

xxxx

Jx

 

This is not a hand I'd expect partner to respond on. Yes, surely partner might have a club singleton or void, but it seems very pessimistic to be willing to miss so many good games just on the off-chance partner has some minimal hand with very short clubs.

I think your example 2 hand xx=Axxxx=Axx=xxx is worth a weak raise to 3clubs, 2s would show a stronger invite? I think I would pass with your other 2 examples. I guess with only 20 hcp I might miss game assuming the opp never bid with their 20 hcp and 8 spades on hand one and 20 hcp hands on hand 3?

[Al_U_Card]

2C has lots of ways to win and there is no rush to get to a final contract if pard is broke. Say he bids 2H (to play), would you now raise on the 5-3 fit or just pass.....

[Guest Jlall]

As for 1♠: count me out. It is never a good idea to make a natural bid in an auction where a raise is the last thing you want to hear.

Is a raise the last thing we want to hear? Oh no, partner has length in hearts and spades! My hand is so bad now! and *gasp* we might have to play a moysian with this hand! Oh wait, this is a good hand for a moysian! And a raise in spades improves my hand! Drats, maybe it's not the last thing I want to hear. Or maybe it is because EVERY OTHER BID is good for me.

 

You are never going to recover from 1♠ if he fits ♠

 

What is this need for recovery? It is quite likely a moysian will play better than 3N even if partner has a diamond stopper. where would our tricks come from? Let's see...not clubs. Believe it or not, some hands are better in a 7 card fit than 3N! Even if he drives to slam in spades, that is not a bad thing. If he has 5 hearts, we can back into hearts on some auctions.

 

and never going to convince partner that you are 3=3=1=6: if you ever do bid out your shape, he will play you for 4=3=1=5.

 

Finally we agree. My question is, how will you convince your partner that 20 % of your points are in clubs and 80 % are in the majors? How will you convince him your heart support is this good, your hand is this good, or your suit is this bad? How will you avoid playing 2C cold for 4H opposite many hands with 5 hearts and a stiff club and a smattering of values? The point of this hand is it will be hard to describe your hand whatever you bid. I think showing 4315 and some extra values is pretty close.

 

Why lie to partner in a constructive auction?? I have never understood the temptation to make such bids: bridge is a partnership game.

 

It is also a game where using your brain is allowed.

[inquiry]

As for 1♠: count me out. It is never a good idea to make a natural bid in an auction where a raise is the last thing you want to hear.

Is a raise the last thing we want to hear? Oh no, partner has length in hearts and spades! My hand is so bad now! and *gasp* we might have to play a moysian with this hand! Oh wait, this is a good hand for a moysian! And a raise in spades improves my hand! Drats, maybe it's not the last thing I want to hear. Or maybe it is because EVERY OTHER BID is good for me.

What he said. 1♠ is really a pretty good bid imvho

[Double !]

I am another who selected 1 spade.

I not only wish to show where my cards are, but this uses minimum room and gives P more options (including checkback options). I can also show belated support for hearts without getting too high. LOL In the past I would have rebid the clubs. Not sure if selecting a 1 spade rebid means that I am progressing or regressing. :ph34r:

 

DHL

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sak3hkq5d9ck86432]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♣ - 1♥

?[/hv]

 

No good rebid. What's the best lie?

This is really an easy 2C to me. 2C can be as good as bad 16, if partner holds two aces and C fit, he should keep the bidding alive.

[Al_U_Card]

Or when he rebids 2D you can now jump to 3H and have room for a little slam try when he bids 4C say......

[Fluffy]

About 1♠... its thekind of bid I often do, but 2♣ is so obvious this time.....

[Al_U_Card]

You should have a full envelope before you try to stretch it....lol

[han]

2H for me, more encouraging than 2C.

[han]

And I like 1S.

[mikeh]

Is a raise the last thing we want to hear? Oh no, partner has length in hearts and spades! My hand is so bad now! and *gasp* we might have to play a moysian with this hand! Oh wait, this is a good hand for a moysian! And a raise in spades improves my hand! Drats, maybe it's not the last thing I want to hear. Or maybe it is because EVERY OTHER BID is good for me.

 

You are never going to recover from 1♠ if he fits ♠

 

What is this need for recovery? It is quite likely a moysian will play better than 3N even if partner has a diamond stopper. where would our tricks come from? Let's see...not clubs. Believe it or not, some hands are better in a 7 card fit than 3N! Even if he drives to slam in spades, that is not a bad thing. If he has 5 hearts, we can back into hearts on some auctions.

 

It is also a game where using your brain is allowed.

Let me see if I understand this: partner, with 4=5 (or 4=6) in the majors is going to enjoy the moysian. Hmmmm. Well, the good news is that he will certainly have a chance to use his brain more than he would if he were in his 8 or 9 card fit.

 

If he bids 4th suit forcing, we will be well on our way to describing this hand with our 3♥ bid (not). Now we cannot get back to ♥ if he insists upon ♠. What if he bids 3♠ after our 3♥ bid??? Unless you play adjective bridge (in which

you can bid 4♥ 'to play'), you are no longer in a position to control the auction.

 

If you bid 2♣, and he has a gf or invitational hand with 5♥, you will always find that fit.

 

If he raises ♠, how on earth do we deny our 4th ♠ by bidding 3♥? Such a bid would be ok on values, but surely we risk his bidding 4♠ on the not unreasonable assumption that a 4-4 fit may play better than a 5-3.

 

And what if he jumps to 4♠? it is an unusual bid, but not impossible with a minimum opening hand and, say, 4=4 in the majors.

 

If by any chance he fits ♣, will he appreciate that we hold 6 of them? This information may assist him in counting tricks should he be in a quandary about the level to aspire to.

 

And what if we have caught him on a minimum 3=5=3=2 5 or 6 count? With, say, Jxx Axxxx xxx xx? Might he pass 1♠? Especially if 1♠ promised an unbalanced hand, where he fears a stiff ♥?

 

I agree (finally) with the comment that 1♠ will be okay if partner wants to play a moysian, under the mistaken view that it is a 4-4 fit, provided that we do not have an 8 or longer ♥ fit. It does strike me that the moysian ♥ fit should play as well, and it is not beyond the ability of most good players to find that fit: moreover, they may find it knowing what they are doing, rather than by misleading partner. For example, I play that 2♦ over 2♣ is artificial, forcing one round. I can now bid 2 or 3♥.

 

Having an auction that describes your hand while allowing partner to make an informed decision: now that would really be using one's brain.

[Al_U_Card]

Having an auction that describes your hand while allowing partner to make an informed decision: now that would really be using one's brain.

Clearly a case of negative inferences (why didn't he bid THAT instead) makes the 2C call easier on pard's brainpan B)

[Guest Jlall]

Let me see if I understand this: partner, with 4=5 (or 4=6) in the majors is going to enjoy the moysian. Hmmmm. Well, the good news is that he will certainly have a chance to use his brain more than he would if he were in his 8 or 9 card fit.

4-6 is not relevant, we will always back into hearts provided he does not jump to 4S.

 

With 4-5 we might or might not back into hearts, but I agree partner will generally pick spades unless he has some reason not to.

 

I think you are missing the point, though. The point is, even if we land in spades that will often be ok, especially since we are playing it and not partner B)

 

If he bids 4th suit forcing, we will be well on our way to describing this hand with our 3♥ bid (not). Now we cannot get back to ♥ if he insists upon ♠. What if he bids 3♠ after our 3♥ bid??? Unless you play adjective bridge (in which

you can bid 4♥ 'to play'), you are no longer in a position to control the auction.

 

Partner has bid 4th suit forcing and raised spades. I have a very good 15 suitable for a moysian. I don't know about you, Mike, but I like my chances in 4S.

 

How are we not well on our way to describing our hand? If partner does NOT raise spades he will be in good shape to judge the auction opposite our "4315" with extras. He can raise clubs with 3, cuebid 4D for hearts, or put us in NT when that will be right. I'm not sure how you will show a spade fragment, 3 very good hearts, and extra values after bidding 2C.

 

If you bid 2♣, and he has a gf or invitational hand with 5♥, you will always find that fit.

 

This is very unclear to me. Hands with 5 bad hearts, a fitting club honors, and outside stoppers will often just bid 3N. Even if it misses a 5-3 fit that will often be good as partner can expect to take club tricks and may have 3 trump losers in hearts if hearts go foul.

 

And what if he jumps to 4♠? it is an unusual bid, but not impossible with a minimum opening hand and, say, 4=4 in the majors.

 

Then we might be in the best contract, and we will probably make it.

 

If by any chance he fits ♣, will he appreciate that we hold 6 of them? This information may assist him in counting tricks should he be in a quandary about the level to aspire to.

 

If he fits clubs our hand will be in good position to take control IE 1C-1H-1S-2D-3H-4C-4N.

 

And what if we have caught him on a minimum 3=5=3=2 5 or 6 count? With, say, Jxx Axxxx xxx xx? Might he pass 1♠? Especially if 1♠ promised an unbalanced hand, where he fears a stiff ♥?

 

Believe it or not, it just might make (especially if you give him 1 less club and 1 more diamond). The opps will have a hard time defending it, and even if 1S goes down and we are on for 2C that is not the biggest disaster I have ever seen.

 

I agree (finally) with the comment that 1♠ will be okay if partner wants to play a moysian, under the mistaken view that it is a 4-4 fit, provided that we do not have an 8 or longer ♥ fit. It does strike me that the moysian ♥ fit should play as well, and it is not beyond the ability of most good players to find that fit: moreover, they may find it knowing what they are doing, rather than by misleading partner. For example, I play that 2♦ over 2♣ is artificial, forcing one round. I can now bid 2 or 3♥.

 

That's nice, over 2C-2D you can bid 3H. Now how will pard bid a moysian knowing it is right??? His trumps will not be good, and he won't know yours are KQx. AND HE DOES NOT KNOW YOUR SHORTNESS. I ask you what hand he can intelligently just punt out 4H here on a moysian with. He will very often just bid 3N, knowing nothing about your side lengths and high cards (as he would know had you bid 1S). He will also (probably mistakenly) think you have a potential trick source in clubs playing in NT. if 4H on a moysian is the right contract, 1S is unquestionably a better start. As for finding the right contract "knowing what I'm doing" or by "misleading partner" that doesn't really matter to me.

 

Having an auction that describes your hand while allowing partner to make an informed decision: now that would really be using one's brain.

 

I agree, and I once again submit that if partner has a game going/invitational hand, you have described your hand much better by starting with 1S. Over which auction is partner more likely to make an accurate decision over:

 

1C-1H-1S-2D-3H OR

1C-1H-2C-2D-3H

 

How about

 

1C-1H-1S-2N-3H OR

1C-1H-2C-2N-3H

 

I say the former in both auctions.

 

 

It is interesting you focus on the hands only when partner has 4S. Over any non 2S/3S/4S bid by partner (which as we have seen are not necessarily bad things that guarantee us getting to the wrong contract) we will be very well placed for the rest of the auction.

[han]

You guys are just repeating yourself.

 

1S is likely to get you to an inferior spot if partner is 4-5 in the majors. If partner is 4-4 or has less than 4 spades then it will usually work well. Besides the fact that Mikeh dislikes lying to partner, isn't this the whole story?

[Guest Jlall]

You guys are just repeating yourself.

 

1S is likely to get you to an inferior spot if partner is 4-5 in the majors. If partner is 4-4 or has less than 4 spades then it will usually work well. Besides the fact that Mikeh dislikes lying to partner, isn't this the whole story?

wdp.

[han]

Hey, I am an objective observer, I'm not your p.

[Kalvan14]

I'm another one of the 1♠ crazies. :)

[Echognome]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sj976haj64da2ca42&s=sak4hkq7dk98763c3]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♦ - 1♥

3♥ - 4♣

4♠ - 4NT

5♠ - 6♥

All Pass[/hv]

 

This was the actual hand and auction from the book Famous Bidding Decisions by Reese and Bird. The declarer went 1 down after a club lead. The hand can be made after this start though. Can you find the line?

 

The authors commentary about the bidding read:

 

"The problem with three hearts is that it is not so convenient to ruff with a trump holding of KQx as it would be with say, Axx. Two diamonds and two hearts are both unenterprising and three diamonds unattractive on such a moderate suit. It may not be perfect, but we incline rather to one spade, which leaves space to find the best spot. We mark it:

 

1♠ - 5

2♦ - 2

2♥ - 3

3♦ - 2

3♥ - 3

 

Here partner holds four spades, but this need not cause a problem. A possible auction to the easy-to-make diamond slam would be: 1♦-1♥, 1♠-2♣, 3♥-3♠, 4♦-6♦"

[Fluffy]

Looks like duck the ♣ and hope for 3-3♥ and 3-2♦

[mikestar]

It is really a question of probability. 1♠ loses if partner is 4-5 majors, should break even if he is 4-4 majors and is almost certain to win if he doesn't fit spades. I vote for 1S, but lament not having a convention for the BWDH.

[Echognome]

Looks like duck the ♣ and hope for 3-3♥ and 3-2♦

Not quite. You can cater for 4-2 hearts.

[PMetsch]

The hand can be made after this start though.  Can you find the line? 

I would take ♣A and duck a ♦ at trick 2.

[Fluffy]

woahh sorry I was sleepy when I answered first, ♣A+ duck a ♦