Simple bidding, wide difference

[Fluffy]

S - W - N - E

1♣-1♥-ps-1♠

ps-2♥

 

supose 1♠ is 100% forcing.

Of course you play 1♣-2♥ as weak

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

missing is, how many spades does 1S promise?

 

2H just shows minimum and denies primary support

for spades, what else do you bid with a 5-3-3-2 shape

and 8-9 HCP?

Dont claim, you pass 1C holding

 

xx

AKJTx

xxx

xxx

 

and 2H is probably not the best idea, at least not red versus

green.

 

With kind regards

Marowe

[luis]

To me this is a bad 1♥ overcall, 4+ cards and about 7-10HCP.

[Guest Jlall]

usually 6, but can be a 5 card suit with an awkward rebid. If it shows 6 that does not mean 12+ points, there are many hands with 7 points and 6 hearts that are 1H bids and not 2H bids.

[Fluffy]

To me this is a bad 1♥ overcall, 4+ cards and about 7-10HCP.

Right, I forgot 4 card overcalls, so please take the first choicee as 4 or 5 cards.

[kenrexford]

An agreement where 1S is 100% forcing and 2H is rebid on a 4-card suit makes no sense. In my mind, this auction parallels a pretend auction 1H-1C-1S-P-? If 1S is 100% forcing, then 1NT should be biddable on a flat, weak hand, to allow partner to bid a second suit, repeat spades, or whatever, especially if the opening was 1C. Sure, the lead may be wrong-sided, but how else can you have intelligent auctions? What, you rebid 2H with anything from 4-7 hearts? Partner now must guess what next, or bid his new suit at the three-level, if he has one? Or, ask for stoppers really really high?

[Winstonm]

In theory the spade bid should stongly deny a heart fit and the heart rebid absolutely denies a good spade fit - so it is either spade intolererance with a reasonable heart overcall or spade tolerance and a slightly better hand - forward movement one might say. What to bid with: Kx, AKJxx, Qxx, xxx in this auction?

 

With less I can pass. With shape I can bid another suit. By default it becomes either Kx, AKJxx, Qxx, xx (or the like) or x, AJ10xxx, xxx, KQx (or something like this that didn't rate 2H a better bid). Either way it seems 2H has to be semi-constructive and denies a real poor overcall - thinking in this that with x, KQ10xx, QJxx, xxx that 2D is non constructive.

 

Winston

[Robert]

Hello everyone

 

What is the overcall range and style?

 

1m-1M is 100% forcing in standard methods, however, it only shows @ 6+HCP.

 

Advancers' 1S is 'forcing', what HCP range does it promise? Is it forcing to a certain level or just for one round?

 

This is an interesting question. The bidding space is rapidly disappearing and we appear to have few options that have standard meanings.

 

My guess(with a pick up partner) would be to repeat the hearts to 'deny' extra values.

 

Using my current 8+HCP overcall range, I would like to have the agreement that my cuebid showed 12/13+ with a regular partner. Hopefully partner can bid something that gets us to a playable(reasonable?) contract after a 2H rebid.

 

If partner can bid 1S as forcing with @6+HCP, we really do not want to get very high. If partner has 12+HCPs, a minimum rebid holding 12+ by the 1H overcaller could miss game.

 

I suspect that partner does have some cards 'or' LHO is 'waiting' with the rest of my heart suit. Hopefully, it is partner with the good hand and he will know what to do over after my 2H 'nothing to report' rebid.

 

Regards,

Robert

[awm]

I'd tend to go with 6+ cards and 11+ points. To address some of the issues:

 

(1) Usually there is another natural rebid available. I play both 2♣ and 2♦ rebids as natural here (even though clubs is opener's suit), and while I'd like to have four cards for either rebid I could see bidding a three card minor on the rare awkward 2533 hand where notrump is untenable. I also don't think that a 1NT rebid from overcaller absolutely has to guarantee a stopper (and something like Qxx is certainly acceptable).

 

(2) While I don't believe that 1♠ always shows five cards, I would tend not to bid 1♠ on a weak four-card holding. The 1♥ bidder could double with 5♥+4♠, especially if the spades are good ones. With this in mind I think overcaller should raise spades on three nearly always. This removes a lot of "awkward rebid" hands.

 

(3) Yes there are some hands with six-card heart suits that don't merit a 2♥ call. However, usually you don't particularly want to rebid 2♥ on these hands either -- i.e. the heart suit is lousy and you are afraid of a penalty at the two level. Often with these hands one is better off to try raising spades on three, or rebidding a minor or NT, rather than the 2♥ call that you probably avoided for a reason the first time around.

[Guest Jlall]

(3) Yes there are some hands with six-card heart suits that don't merit a 2♥ call. However, usually you don't particularly want to rebid 2♥ on these hands either -- i.e. the heart suit is lousy and you are afraid of a penalty at the two level. Often with these hands one is better off to try raising spades on three, or rebidding a minor or NT, rather than the 2♥ call that you probably avoided for a reason the first time around.

I do not see any way to bid xx KTxxxx Axx xx or a hand type like that. Both bids seem automatic (but it often seems that way to me when that is not the case :angry:). There are many many hands like this imo, but perhaps this is due to my styles of both overcalling light and believing that more classical hands are required for weak jump overcalls as well as better suits. I do not believe that many hands you would open 2H should be overcalled 2H. I also do not believe that is consistent, if I had the above hand and had to choose between pass and 2H, I would choose 2H. However if you also threw a 1H bid into the mix which promised this many HCP and 5+ hearts, I would much rather bid 1H.

[temp3600]

I play 2H as the minimum, nothing-to-add rebid. So 5 hearts (maybe 6, but not 4), and 8 - 11/12 points.

[Al_U_Card]

I call it the "I chanced an overcall (perhaps just for lead-direction etc.) and now you want to know what I have?" Okay, like reverse drury, 2H shows the hand that you will need a lot to get us to game.

[Kalvan14]

5 cards, exceptionally 4 (very very rare). Weakish hand, kind of forced reply.

It is exactly the same as 1♥-2♣-2♥: what does 2♥ promise better than 1♥ did? Nothing. It just deletes a lot of possible stronger hands.

[Flame]

I think it depend on ur wjo style, i was with those who think this show 11+ hcp hand, because with most 6 cards weak id jump to 2H, but if this isnt true like jlall style then it should show minimum.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I think, one can ignore the case, that 2H is

a 4 carder, possible maybe, but quite unlikely,

because most of the time you will have 10+

for such an overcall and strength in the opponents

suits, i.e. you simply bid 1NT, assuming you do

not have enough support for partner spades.

 

Marlowe

[han]

(3) Yes there are some hands with six-card heart suits that don't merit a 2♥ call. However, usually you don't particularly want to rebid 2♥ on these hands either -- i.e. the heart suit is lousy and you are afraid of a penalty at the two level. Often with these hands one is better off to try raising spades on three, or rebidding a minor or NT, rather than the 2♥ call that you probably avoided for a reason the first time around.

I do not see any way to bid xx KTxxxx Axx xx or a hand type like that. Both bids seem automatic (but it often seems that way to me when that is not the case B)). There are many many hands like this imo, but perhaps this is due to my styles of both overcalling light and believing that more classical hands are required for weak jump overcalls as well as better suits. I do not believe that many hands you would open 2H should be overcalled 2H. I also do not believe that is consistent, if I had the above hand and had to choose between pass and 2H, I would choose 2H. However if you also threw a 1H bid into the mix which promised this many HCP and 5+ hearts, I would much rather bid 1H.

Interesting, for me a 2H overcall is far less diciplined than a 2H opening. The idea is that once the opponents open, we are less likely to preempt partner. What are your reasons for opening 2H with more hands than you would overcall 2H with?

 

I play 1H followed by 2H as a hand that is too good for a direct 2H bid. I wonder what you do with xx AKJxxx Axx xx after (1C)-1H-1S if you also bid 1H followed by 2H with xx K10xxxx Axx xx.

[Guest Jlall]

What are your reasons for opening 2H with more hands than you would overcall 2H with?

Again, does anyone LIKE opening 2H with xx KTxxxx Axx xx? I sure don't. We put our lives on the line every time we do it, but many people do it because it helps us find saves, makes life harder for the opps, get's a lead director in, enables partner to further preempt and make life even harder for the opps, helps find "big fit" games, helps compete for partscore etc. Many would risk 1100 on a bad day because the gains make up for it and otherwise would have to pass.

 

Now what if RHO opens? We now have a 1H bid available that does not overstate our values. The advantages of it are... helps find saves, gets lead director in, and enables partner to bid more (albeit not as much as quickly as if we had preempted), helps find big fit games, helps compete for the partscore. It loses out on making life a little tougher for the opps immediately. This is not that big of a deal to me, especially since after RHO has opened a preempt is less likely to be effective than if nobody has bid yet. That is to say, the more defined the opps hand is the less likely a preempt is to burn them. They are not going to get shutout with 13 opp 13 now for instance. The risk is quite substantial by bidding 2H while much of the gains it has are also accomplished by bidding a much less risky 1H. In my experience, the opps do not gun for you much at the 1 level and at the 2 level they will often play for penalties.

 

So when will I preempt? Basically when I have a better suit, when I am not 6322, etc etc. Spots are key.

 

As for "preempting partner" I do not believe in this theory. An opening preempt is a good start for our side if we are going to play in that suit for partscore/game/slam bidding. If we are going to play in a different suit it is less good, but the preempter gets a chance to further define his hand/fit for partner. If partner has a misfit it will often enable us to stop low. The only way it will "preempt" partner is if we belong in a different suit but he is not good enough to make a forcing call. I will not worry about this too much as that means it's a partscore hand in most cases.

 

I play 1H followed by 2H as a hand that is too good for a direct 2H bid. I wonder what you do with xx AKJxxx Axx xx after (1C)-1H-1S if you also bid 1H followed by 2H with xx K10xxxx Axx xx.

 

I would bid 3H.

[Al_U_Card]

As for "preempting partner" I do not believe in this theory. An opening preempt is a good start for our side if we are going to play in that suit for partscore/game/slam bidding. If we are going to play in a different suit it is less good, but the preempter gets a chance to further define his hand/fit for partner. If partner has a misfit it will often enable us to stop low. The only way it will "preempt" partner is if we belong in a different suit but he is not good enough to make a forcing call. I will not worry about this too much as that means it's a partscore hand in most cases.

I hope to convice my reg f2f of the merit in this. (one of these days at least B) )

[Fluffy]

Justin: IMO if you overcall 1♥ with 6 cards because you find the suit quality to make it 5 cards, on second round of bidding it still is a 5 card suit. Then you will rebid the same way as if it was a 2533 hand instead of 2632.

[SoTired]

The original question: If 1S is 100% forcing, what does 2H mean in the auction 1C 1H p 1S p 2H.

 

My answer: The question is taken out of context. If you play that 1S is forcing, you MUST define continuations for overcaller to describe different hands. It is similar to saying, how many points is 1C p 1H p 1N? The answer is dependent on the rest of the system and is different if playing precision, strong NT, or weak NT.

 

So what is overcaller supposed to do with the weak 8 hcp 5h hand? And the better 12 6h hand? If overcaller rebid 2D instead would it show more values or is it just a 2nd 4-card suit?

 

How can u define 1S as 100% forcing and not answer these questions as part of your system?

 

My own preference is the rule "Rebid own suit is always my weakest bid". But maybe "cheapest rebid is weakest" (1N) makes more sense.

[whereagles]

As for "preempting partner" I do not believe in this theory.

If you're playing sound openings, the self-preemption effect is minimal. But as you increase the randomness of the preempt, self-preemption becomes visible.

 

Whether or not it is important is another matter. But it is there.

[kenrexford]

On a bigger note, why on earth overcall 1H on trash? Do you like being forced to lead away from your heart suit? Do you like transferring the likely spade contract to the likely stronger opener? Do you like allowing the opponents to define 4S and 5+S hands immediately?

 

In my humble opinion, 1min-1H should be an opener. Otherwise, bid 2H or pass. So, 1S as forcing, in this context, makes sense.

 

Now, using that approach, you could treat 1S as sort-of like a forcing 1NT. With a fit, raise spades. With no fit but a club stopper, bid 1NT. Or, you could bid a minor with the same length requirements for that minor call as if the auction had been 1H-P-1NT-P-? Or, 4+ for the other minor, anything else for Opener's minor.

 

Rebidding 2H on trash is insanity repeated.

[han]

In my humble opinion, 1min-1H should be an opener.

I agree as long as I'm allowed to open very light when I overcall.... :lol:

[luke warm]

i voted 'other' because i think it shows 6 cards but i don't know why it has to be 11+ points... if 1s is 100% forcing and i'm 1=6=3=3 what else am i to do with a typical 8/9 count?

[awm]

What does partner's 1♠ show? I think partner will usually bid this with five spades, so it could be a decent hand, or it could just be some hand with 5-1-4-3 or something shape.

 

If partner can have something like a six-count with five spades, I'm not real happy bidding 2♥ on a bad suit opposite a possible misfit. This is actually even worse than bidding 2♥ initially with my hand, since now opponents doubles will be penalty and they are less likely to be preempted out of a spade fit. Similarly I'm not happy bidding 3♥ on a minimum opener -- couldn't we have 18-20 points and no fit on this auction? Why jeopardize my plus position?

 

With a hand like the one Justin gives (xx KTxxxx Axx xx) I'll try a 2♦ rebid. Most of the time partner corrects to hearts anyway, and if partner passes we may be in the best spot. The problem is that if I rebid 2♥ we're pretty much going to play in hearts. I also don't like the idea of rebidding 3♥ on xx AKJxxx Axx xx, preferring my jump rebids to look more like 15-16 points (much like a 1♥..3♥ sequence after opening).