Where did we go wrong?

[microcap]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sakqhkqj87d87654c&s=s3ha103dj103cak8743]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Playing 2/1--

 

These were the two hands--Rex was North, I was South. The bidding started innocently enough-- 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♥. Now Rex bid 3♦ showing a 5th diamond and extras. I tried 3♠, meant as a cue since it couldnt be natural at this point. Rex bid 3NT naturally, and I bid 4♣ as another cue. Rex bid 4♥, then I bid 4♠ as RKCB for hearts. Fortunately, Rex forgot what this was and bid 5 ♣ to show his void. I thought it was one key card, and bid 5♥, which went down one anyway LOL

 

Where did we go wrong, and why? Is there a decent auction that stops in 4♥? The other room went down in 5♥ as well.... thanks to all as always.

[Gerben42]

If you intended both 3♠ and 4♣ as cue and partner did not cue ♦, why did you not pass 4♥? There seems to be a missing ♦ control!

[luke warm]

i can't blame either of you for thinking slammish thoughts, him because your 2H bid made his hand much better and you because his 3D bid gave you a double fit (in your mind)

 

i don't like the 3D bid, personally... how do you play 4C by rex, after you support hearts (and even tho you'd bid clubs)? in any case, i think

 

1h : 2c

2d : 2h

2s : 3c

4h

 

your 3c should warn him of duplication

[Guest Jlall]

I also like 2S over 2H. I like to follow "the rule of 12" whenever possible which states whenever you can make a bid that shows 12 of your 13 cards, make it. 2S is also more economical than 3D, and from a common sense point of view bypassing AKQ to bid 8xxxx doesn't make much sense. 3N does not make sense to me either, that usually shows strong spades and BAD TRUMPS. After 4C-4H you have done enough. Partner's 3N and lack of 4D bid should really turn you off, and you've already bid your hand enough. Having 3 diamonds is also a bad number, even though you had some good pushers.

[Chamaco]

I would not bid twice my diamonds.

To me, 87654 is a 4 card suit ;)

2S keeps the bidding lower and tells pard where my side strength is.

[Winstonm]

This is the reason I don't bid out shape. Instead, I show interest/intentions and locations of controls so....

 

1H-2C* *First warning flag. Void opposite pard's suit isn't good.

2D-2H

2S*-3C** *Slam interest and control. **cooperating and control.

3S*-4C** More of the same. **more of the same.

4H*-P** *No diamond control. **Me, either.

 

Winston

[microcap]

Gerben, frankly when he rebid ♦ to show extras, it didnt quite occur to me he had 5 to the 8 LOL I tend to agree with those who didnt like the 3♦ rebid for that reason...

[mike777]

ok , why did he not bid 2s over 2h? To show what diamonds?

[Kalvan14]

2♣ shoud ring a bell for N: I am never happy when the 1st suit of my pard is in my chicane. Anyway, I agree that 2♠ is the best rebid over 2♥. Over 3♣, I would also bid 4♥; at worst I would bid 3♠, and now S would know that there is no control in diamonds.

[Fluffy]

It's not like I dislike the 3♦ bid, it is jsuit that 2♠ is much better

[WrecksVee]

Hello! This is Rex who seldom posts. Jay and I appreciate the input we get from posting our misadventures. It has helped us correct our system and settle disagreements using this source of objective criticism.

 

I very much like the idea of bidding to show 12 cards if possible. But I have one concern with the 2♠ call. Partner on that auction has not denied four cards in ♠. Does the suggested 2♠ bid deny four cards? If it does not wouldn't partner raise to 3♠? At that, 1♥-2♣-2[RDI]-2♥-2♠-3♠-? I know that partner is at least =4=3=1=5. But I now think it is unclear to partner what suit is trump.

 

Actually I think that if I had extra values with =4=5=4=0 that I should bid 2♠ instead of 2♦. Better I think to bid the majors since finding a fit for game is more important than keeping the bidding low with 2♦. If this is accepted than there is support that the suggested 2♠ does not show four cards.

 

But unlike many here I am more concerned about showing shape. When I rebid 3♦ I was trying to learn if there was a nine card diamond fit since that might be a better strain for slam. The suggested 2♠ bid does accomplish that goal since with =1=3=4=5 partner would support the unrebid suit. I could than set hearts by bidding 3♥ or set ♦ by cue bidding.

 

I do appreciate all the comments that even with our various misunderstandings it seemed plain that there was no diamond control so stopping in 4♥ was possible.

[mike777]

Ok, you are focusing on what 2s and 3d bids mean but the crucial bid here is 2H!

 

If you agree that 2H is a slam try in hearts then the rest of the bidding is looking for a Heart slam. Easy!

 

On the other hand if 2H is just some nebulous bid with many possible interpretations than you create a much more difficult bidding system. You and your partner may feel strongly this is best, Good Luck. I just think the advantage of 2/1 is to find your fits at a very low level, it sounds like you play a different style.

[WrecksVee]

I think the support bid of 2♥ shows that slam could be possible if partner has more than a min. So it is not yet a slam try. For me Jacoby 2NT and splinters handle most four card forcing raises so this does tend to be three card support.

 

I think 1♠-2♣-2♦-4♥ shows that responder has values in clubs and hearts with no control in either spades or diamonds.

 

1♠-2♣-2♦-3♥ shows that responder has four card support with a good club suit as a source of tricks. This is a hand that is not as well suited to making a splinter or using Jacoby 2NT. I play this as a slam try so it has some extra. If it is too weak I would bid only 2♥ or if it qualified 4♥ as described above.

 

This is more picture bidding than fast arrival. I do not think this is that unusual an approach. Certainly it is not original with me: see Washington Standard et al

[luke warm]

the 2H bid should have set trumps... it could be 4, but probably is only 3... in either case, 2S can (very rare i think) but doesn't have to be your 3rd (you've already bid diamonds) suit

 

i'd play it as either bidding out the shape or a control for either nt or slam.. i don't see a problem with partner bidding 3S... matter of fact, i can't even see him bidding 3S.. with a gf hand and heart support, no diamond control, he can bid 3C (my choice) or 4H

[mike777]

I think the support bid of 2♥ shows that slam could be possible if partner has more than a min.  So it is not yet a slam try.   For me  Jacoby 2NT and splinters handle most four card forcing raises so this does tend to be three card support.

 

I think 1♠-2♣-2♦-4♥ shows that responder has values in clubs and hearts with no control in either spades or diamonds.

 

1♠-2♣-2♦-3♥ shows that responder has four card support with a good club suit as a source of tricks.  This is a  hand that is not as well suited to making a splinter or using Jacoby 2NT.  I play this as a slam try so it has some extra.  If it is too weak I would bid only 2♥ or if it qualified 4♥ as described above.

 

This is more picture bidding than fast arrival.  I do not think this is that unusual an approach.   Certainly it is not original with me: see Washington Standard et al

To follow your own system then rebid 4h not 2h! You have a very minimim hand with clubs and hearts. I think you could come up with a worse hand for 4h but not to many.

 

I repeat it seems you are playing 2h here with some nebulous meaning. If it is not a slam try why bother? If partner needs a stiff spade they can cuebid 5d now over 4h, perfect!

 

If this hand is extras bid 2h slam try, if minimum and it is for me, then 4H.

[cherdano]

Hello!  This is Rex who seldom posts.  Jay and I appreciate the input we get from posting our misadventures.  It has helped us correct our system and settle disagreements using this source of objective criticism.

 

I very much like the idea of bidding to show 12 cards if possible.  But I have one concern with the 2♠ call.  Partner on that auction has not denied four cards in ♠.  Does the suggested 2♠ bid deny four cards?  If it does not wouldn't partner raise to 3♠?  At that, 1♥-2♣-2[RDI]-2♥-2♠-3♠-? I know that partner is  at least =4=3=1=5.  But I now think it is unclear to partner what suit is trump.

 

Actually I think that if I had extra values with =4=5=4=0 that I should bid 2♠ instead of 2♦.  Better I think to bid the majors since finding a fit for game is more important than keeping the bidding low with 2♦.  If this is accepted than there is support that the  suggested 2♠ does not show four cards.

 

But unlike many here I am more concerned about showing shape.  When I rebid 3♦ I was trying to learn if there was a nine card diamond fit since that might be a better strain for slam.  The suggested 2♠ bid does accomplish that goal since with =1=3=4=5 partner would support the unrebid suit.  I could than set hearts by bidding 3♥ or set ♦ by cue bidding.

One problem with that is that you need very good 4-card support from partner to avoid having two trump losers. If you rebid diamonds twice, your partner will never think that ♦ATxx is not good enough for the trump suit!

 

I would rather like to find out about the opposite, ♦ shortness with partner. So your worry about partner raising to 3♠ with 4 spades is not a worry -- you suddenly know he has diamond shortness, and you can drive to a heart slam after checking for 1st round controls.

 

Arend

[WrecksVee]

One problem with that is that you need very good 4-card support from partner to avoid having two trump losers. If you rebid diamonds twice, your partner will never think that ♦ATxx is not good enough for the trump suit!

 

I would rather like to find out about the opposite, ♦ shortness with partner. So your worry about partner raising to 3♠ with 4 spades is not a worry -- you suddenly know he has diamond shortness, and you can drive to a heart slam after checking for 1st round controls.

 

Arend

The point about the ♦ATxx not being good enough for slam is excellent. But if partner has =1=3=4=5 his rebid after the suggested 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠ of 3♦ tells you that he has four ♦. That makes the issue of ♦ losers and wasted points in the black suits clear. So one of us should be able to make the right decision as to level and strain.

 

I saw that if partner raised ♠ that is =4=3=1=5 or =4=3=0=6. My concern is confusion by partner in thinking that we have a 4-4 ♠ fit. Since I have both major suit kings if I bid RKCB partner has only aces to show. As I know partner has at best ♠Jxxx if he raises I think he will not correct me into the 4-4 fit if I bid the hand to 6♥. As above the distributions are made clear, so it is a question of the partnership determining if they have the right high cards.

 

The question I asked is that if you have extra strenght with =4=5=4=0 and the auction begins 1♥-2♣ do you bid 2♦ as the cheapest descriptive call or do you show spades first with 2♠? I am in favor of the 2♠ rebid as the concern at this point in the auction is finding the best game. If I did not have extra strenght than 2♦ is clear. Note that we do not play Flannery.

[mike777]

The question I asked is that if you have extra strenght with =4=5=4=0 and the auction begins 1♥-2♣ do you bid 2♦ as the cheapest descriptive call or do you show spades first with 2♠? I am in favor of the 2♠ rebid as the concern at this point in the auction is finding the best game. If I did not have extra strenght than 2♦ is clear. Note that we do not play Flannery.

With 4=5=4=0 I would rebid 2D on almost all hands regardless of HCP. The exception being if my D suit was worthless.

 

Why? Responder can rebid 2s and I can rebid 3spades now to show this hand. Example:

1H=2C

2D=2S

3S

Note on this auction 2 spades may or may not show 4 card suit but 3 spades rebid does promise 4 cards.

 

If opener was:

xxx=AKxxx=AKxx=x I would just rebid 2nt not 3 spades. Partner needs to have 14 hcp somewhere for their 2club game force bid.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont like 2H, I would prefer 3H.

Not knowing 2/1 pretty well, I am unsure,

if 2H shows heart support, ... but my feeling

is, it doesnt, i.e. it is only a preference.

 

Over 3H all bids are clearly cue bids, and 3S

should reveal the duplication, ... and even if not,

over 4C, just bid 4H denying a diamond control,

responder did bid his hand, bidding RKCB is an

overbid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

One problem with that is that you need very good 4-card support from partner to avoid having two trump losers. If you rebid diamonds twice, your partner will never think that ♦ATxx is not good enough for the trump suit!

 

I would rather like to find out about the opposite, ♦ shortness with partner. So your worry about partner raising to 3♠ with 4 spades is not a worry -- you suddenly know he has diamond shortness, and you can drive to a heart slam after checking for 1st round controls.

 

Arend

The point about the ♦ATxx not being good enough for slam is excellent. But if partner has =1=3=4=5 his rebid after the suggested 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠ of 3♦ tells you that he has four ♦. That makes the issue of ♦ losers and wasted points in the black suits clear. So one of us should be able to make the right decision as to level and strain.

 

I saw that if partner raised ♠ that is =4=3=1=5 or =4=3=0=6. My concern is confusion by partner in thinking that we have a 4-4 ♠ fit. Since I have both major suit kings if I bid RKCB partner has only aces to show. As I know partner has at best ♠Jxxx if he raises I think he will not correct me into the 4-4 fit if I bid the hand to 6♥. As above the distributions are made clear, so it is a question of the partnership determining if they have the right high cards.

 

The question I asked is that if you have extra strenght with =4=5=4=0 and the auction begins 1♥-2♣ do you bid 2♦ as the cheapest descriptive call or do you show spades first with 2♠? I am in favor of the 2♠ rebid as the concern at this point in the auction is finding the best game. If I did not have extra strenght than 2♦ is clear. Note that we do not play Flannery.

Don't worry about that, when opener bids 4th suit on a GF forcing situation it doesn't show 4 cards always, partner will know you could have just 3.

[Chamaco]

If you agree that 2H is a slam try in hearts then the rest of the bidding is looking for a Heart slam. Easy!

Many players do not play fast arrival here, and in this style, the 2H rebid does not show/deny any extras.

 

I do not think that slow arrival is so much more complicated once used to it :rolleyes:

[han]

I have never heard of this "rule of 12" but I love it.

[Guest Jlall]

I have never heard of this "rule of 12" but I love it.

I dont even remember if I just made it up or not but I'm pretty sure I read about it in master solvers? I don't even remember.