One to solve for your system

[cherdano]

To those who start 1H-2H-2S-3S-4N...why is 4N keycard for spades? Would you ever bid 2S with less than 4 spades (3613 slam try)? How would you then make hearts your agreed suit again?

I was wondering the same. I would argue 4NT should be 6-keycard BW here, but I would not be sure that partner is on the same wavelength.

 

Also note that the auction 1H-2H-2S-3S-4NT etc.->6S gambles on the heart queen coming down, since opener doesn't know about reponder's 4th heart. (And no, I don't buy that responder wouldn't accept the game try without the 4th heart.)

 

Arend

[Gerben42]

what's wrong with natural:

1♥ - 1♠

 

You cannot be serious. With 4-card support for partner's major and a hand that is worth just one bid you raise.

 

MP scores on a 20 top basis:

 

6♠: 20

4♥: 13

6♥: 3

[Free]

Free:

if Q♦?

OR

after the 4♥ relay: 5♦=K orQ♣ and K orQ♦ and thus Q♠

After denying a ♣ honour, partner has either ♠A and ♦Q OR ♠Q and ♦KQ OR ♠AQ. When he has a ♦ honour, he'll bid 5♥ instead of 5♦ (because exactly 1 ♠ honour) so I can pass this out.

[luke warm]

To those who start 1H-2H-2S-3S-4N...why is 4N keycard for spades? Would you ever bid 2S with less than 4 spades (3613 slam try)? How would you then make hearts your agreed suit again?

I was wondering the same. I would argue 4NT should be 6-keycard BW here, but I would not be sure that partner is on the same wavelength.

 

Also note that the auction 1H-2H-2S-3S-4NT etc.->6S gambles on the heart queen coming down, since opener doesn't know about reponder's 4th heart. (And no, I don't buy that responder wouldn't accept the game try without the 4th heart.)

 

Arend

arend, playing any naturalish system after 1h : 2h, when is 2s anything other than a game try of some sort? it can but doesn't have to be suit showing, does it?

[MarceldB]

Free:

if Q♦?

OR

after the 4♥ relay: 5♦=K orQ♣ and K orQ♦ and thus Q♠

After denying a ♣ honour, partner has either ♠A and ♦Q OR ♠Q and ♦KQ OR ♠AQ. When he has a ♦ honour, he'll bid 5♥ instead of 5♦ (because exactly 1 ♠ honour) so I can pass this out.

Thanks Free for your reply.

 

I had figured that out too before quoting you.

You have good chances in 5♥ of course.

 

In the option with 5♦ after the 4♥ relay; can you play 5♥? or Jack Scan?

 

In case of 5♠ I won't speak about the possibility of an eventual ♥ ruff by the way.

 

====

I understand that in practice you will take your chances for your investigation.

Opponent has to lead properly firstly and cards can be friendly.

 

Perhaps I'm too focussed on a 100% safe investigation, starting from the fact that the outstanding honours will be on the wrong spot regarding the lead etc..

It is not a bidding contest. Although... ;)

 

 

Cheers,

Marcel

[Free]

After the 5♦ bid it's impossible to play 5♥. That's why it should be forseen before investigating. We are at the perfect level for further investigation: 5♥ makes sure we don't have slam and we will make that (on finesse at most), 5♦ gives us a very good slam.

 

About your 100% investigation: I think a 75+% certainty is more than enough. A while ago I bid 7♦ on following hands:

Axxx-x-AJx-Axxxx

KQJx-Ax-Kxxxxxx-void

Nice prospects isn't it? Well, ♦QTx were wrongsided and we went -1. I could've bid 7NT, but for some reason I didn't (probably because it was MP's and opps wouldn't find grand anyway). However, 7NT goes down a lot after a ♥ or ♣ lead!

 

We play systems where we like our odds. If they are above 80%, I don't mind bidding it and hope percentages will do the rest of the work ;)

[mikestar]

1♥ 2♥ Normal opening and raise

2♠ 3♠ Game try; choice of games

3NT 4♣ Double RKCB; one key (can't want to play 3NT with a double major fit)

4♦ 4♥ Spiral scan; no Q♥

4♠ 5♦ Q♠, extra length in hearts, no K♣

5NT 6♣ Spiral scan, no K♦. (5M would have been to play.)

6♠ We will need a ♦ pitch--had partner shown K♦ I bid 6♥

 

 

The extra heart is critical, slam is under 50% with only nine hearts (52% we drop Q♥, but 5-0 ♠ sinks us).

[luke warm]

i'm still confused... after 1h/2h/2s, why is 3s a choice of games? does 2s show a 2nd suit, is it a "need help" bid, is it a short suit try, what is it?

 

i don't think a person can take 2s as showing 4 cards if help suit bids are part of their structure.. i especially don't understand 4c as 6 ace rkc after opener bid 3nt over 3s, which to me simply confirms <4 cards for the 2s bid ("i heard 3s partner, i needed help there and now i think 3nt is playable")

 

i'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just saying that it doesn't seem as clearcut as you make it appear

[tysen2k]

MP scores on a 20 top basis:

 

6♠: 20

4♥: 13

6♥: 3

If this is true then 4♠ should be worth about 18 or 19.

 

I'm a non-relayer and I get to 4♥ or 4♠ depending on my mood.

 

1♣ 1♦ - 17+ with distribution; 0-8 HCP

1♥ 1♠ - any balanced or 2-suited with better hearts; any balanced or any 0-5

2♥ 4M - 17-22, 5+♥, 4+♠; double fit is nice but keep it simple

P

[keylime]

KLPV16 auction:

 

1♣-1♦

1♥ *forced relay-1♠ *forced

2♠ (4-5-x-x, one round force) -2NT* (asking for further info)

3♠ (4-6-x-x, non-min) - 3NT (asking for side suit controls)

4♦ (has diamond, not club) - 5♠ (trump quality ask)

6♠

[mike777]

KLPV16 auction:

 

1♣-1♦

1♥ *forced relay-1♠ *forced

2♠ (4-5-x-x, one round force) -2NT* (asking for further info)

3♠ (4-6-x-x, non-min) - 3NT (asking for side suit controls)

4♦ (has diamond, not club) - 5♠ (trump quality ask)

6♠

I always thought most bridge theory argued that it is better for strong hand to ask and weak hand to respond, this is reversed.

[luke warm]

yes, dwayne believes in a full (or 3 quarters) duplex system... opener forces a response so he can show a hand type, after which responder asks... otoh, there are times opener asks... i have a hard time knowing who asks what when...

[mikestar]

i'm still confused... after 1h/2h/2s, why is 3s a choice of games? does 2s show a 2nd suit, is it a "need help" bid, is it a short suit try, what is it?

 

i don't think a person can take 2s as showing 4 cards if help suit bids are part of their structure.. i especially don't understand 4c as 6 ace rkc after opener bid 3nt over 3s, which to me simply confirms <4 cards for the 2s bid ("i heard 3s partner, i needed help there and now i think 3nt is playable")

 

i'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just saying that it doesn't seem as clearcut as you make it appear

After a short suit game try, 3S wouldn't be choice of games (not sure what it should be). After a help suit game try, this is choice of games--if opener has only three, he will prefer hearts, but he might have four spades for a help suit try.

 

This sort of hand is one of the reasons why the Granovetters and some others advocate long suit tries--they faciliate finding double fits which will get you to games and slams that the field will miss.