Pressure bidding with Echo

[han]

What would you bid with these hands?

 

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=sxhdaqjxxxxckxxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(2C)-4C-(pass) to you..[/hv]

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=sxhdaqjxxxxckxxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(2C)-4C-(pass) to you..[/hv]

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=sxhdaqjxxxxckxxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(2C)-4C-(pass) to you..[/hv]

[Guest Jlall]

hand 1) 7C. I'm sort of bidding this to make, lol. I can actually see making on a heart lead. I would also always save over 6H, even though we may be able to go ace and a diamond ruff, 7C will be cheap (or making lol). My only concern is pard has psyched a 4C bid. If he has, that is his problem (and would also be a weird psyche).

 

hand 2) Easy 1S for me. We may have a save/need a lead/be able to jack them out of a game/slam etc etc. Not much bad can happen as long as pard knows my white/red overcalls when he is a PH are...suspect.

 

hand 3) Pass. I have nothing, so I bid nothing. Balancing is great but this is overboard and just asking to go for a digit. Bad risk/reward.

[cherdano]

Justin, you are getting old. 2) is a clear 2♠ bid.

 

Arend

[Robert]

Hello everyone

 

1. 4D 'directs the lead' and shows a club fit. They opened 2C, however, they do not always have a slam after bidding 2Cs. I am looking forward to making a penalty 'lead directing' double of 6H/7Hs.

 

Partner can 'look at his hand' and see how our hands fit. If he is looking at a shortness in diamonds, I rather like our chances in defense. If he has 3(+) diamonds, he knows of our double fit and can bid higher. With two diamonds, he can take an informed view.

 

My 0-1 major holdings are a double edged sword, if they happen to land in 6S/7S

I am making a 'penalty' double 'to get' a heart lead. If they land in 6H/7H, I will let partner decide our fate.

 

There was no comment over the 4C-pass bid, partner may have a card or two.

 

What does the pass show in this pairs methods? Meckwell plays a double as a 'forward' going bid, pass here would 'ask' for a double. Good methods.

 

2. If you have decent agreements, 2S stands out. Justin might be getting old, however, some players still bid up their cards. Arend also noticed the clear cut 2S bid.

 

3. Double. Clear cut, letting them play in 2Hs is wrong. If you do not follow the LAW, at least make some attempt to push the other pair around. :rolleyes:

 

Regards,

Robert

[Gerben42]

1. the toughest one - I sort of like Justin's 7♣ bid. Might make too.

 

2. 2♠ at these colours, my partner won't expect more.

 

3. Looks like pass. But only because you said IMPs.

[Guest Jlall]

Justin, you are getting old. 2) is a clear 2♠ bid.

 

Arend

I never bid 2S with these hands regardless of how old I was :rolleyes:

 

I still think that bidding 2S on a hand like this is crazy, and that even white/red opposite a passed hand we shouldn't be going crazy. For starters, we are much more likely to be Xed in 2S than 1S. If it went pass pass X I think I would puke. Our suit is awful, and we are not even sure if the opps make game (they may not have a heart fit since we have 3 and we have diamonds locked up against 3N). My main problem with it, though, is that partner is also white/red and he will misjudge the auction if it gets competitive. He will be looking for a save, and probably won't expect this hand for a 2S bid (if he does by partnership style then we have the problem of what to do with AQTxxx x xxx xxx etc).

 

Especially when we have a 1 level overcall available, I believe our 2 level OVERCALLS should be more classic than our openers. There are many hands I would open 2S with because its better than passing, but I would overcall 1S with because its much less dangerous than 2S and still gets the point across (especially 6322 hands without a great suit).

 

To me bidding 2S is just rolling the dice without good risk/reward. If you want to risk going for 8 or 1100 needlessly there should be one of two things, a compensating upside or some safety based on your hand that the worst case scenario won't happen that often. I don't think we have either here.

[Guest Jlall]

3.  Double.  Clear cut, letting them play in 2Hs is wrong.  If you do not follow the LAW, at least make some attempt to push the other pair around. :P

Oh the law...what a great law.

 

1) They may only have 7 hearts.

2) If our best fit is diamonds, those will break badly. They will be in good position to X us.

3) If our best fit is clubs, we may end in spades anyways, and again they are in good position to X us if that suit is 4-2. They will have lots of honors, lots of trumps, and their hands are limited. Partner didn't even overcall a 4 card suit so either his hand or his suit wont be great.

4) This is a good way to end in a 3-3 fit when pard is 3343.

5) I'll use your "law" which assumes we get to our best fit, and I'll even assume they have 8 trumps. If both sides have 8 trumps, that's 16 total trumps. Our best fit is likely clubs in this case (partner didn't overcall 1S). If the opps make 9 tricks, we make 7. We will go -200 if they pass, -500 if they X, -140 if they bid 3H. Where is the gain? If they make 8 tricks, we make 8 tricks. We will go -100, -200, or +100 if they bid 3H. But why would the opps bid 3H with only 8 trumps? It is doubtful there is any gain in this case. I do see a significant chance of getting sawed off when we are wrong and suits are splitting poorly or we have no fit at all.

 

Keep in mind this does not include negative adjustments for 7 of my 9 points being in the suit.

 

wow 2 consecutive posts I've mentioned getting Xed...I guess I am getting old :rolleyes:

[Trpltrbl]

1) Well I will just bid 7♣, why go slow and have them find out about there possible double major suit fit. Let them try to figure it out at the 7 level.

 

2) 1♠, I really don't see the problem here, even though some will probably pick 2♠ for some absurd reason.

 

3) I think I will double here, kinda what I have. I did pass twice.

 

GBB :lol:

[han]

Let's see what happened at the table

 

(1) Echo bid 7C, which got doubled and made. I had a stiff diamond and AJ10xxxx of clubs. If you bid less than 7C right away then you'd better bid diamonds, else they might make 6H or even 7H.

 

(2) I picked 2♠ for some absurd reason, and I'm not proud of it. Echo raised to 4S on K10xx of spades, and we got doubled. This would have gone for a number but the other opponent saved us by bidding 5C (this went down).

 

(3) Echo passed a third time, and this seems clear to me. It was intended as a trick question.

[Echognome]

Laugh. I was waiting to hear the answers to these as I could only remember the first one. I vaguely remember the second one thinking phew when the opponents took it out. I cannot remember the third one at all and was frightened I took some action on it.

[Guest Jlall]

(2) I picked 2♠ for some absurd reason, and I'm not proud of it. Echo raised to 4S on K10xx of spades, and we got doubled. This would have gone for a number but the other opponent saved us by bidding 5C (this went down).

The moral of this story is... I'm not sure.

 

I was correct partner may misjudge the auction if you bid 2S, and indeed that seems to be what happened. However, others were correct that this may cause a headache for the opps and THEY may misjudge, which also seems to have happened. Great game, bridge.

[cherdano]

Justin, you are getting old. 2) is a clear 2♠ bid.

 

Arend

I never bid 2S with these hands regardless of how old I was :)

Ok, I correct myself: Seems you never were a junior :lol:

 

I still think that bidding 2S on a hand like this is crazy, and that even white/red opposite a passed hand we shouldn't be going crazy. For starters, we are much more likely to be Xed in 2S than 1S. If it went pass pass X I think I would puke. Our suit is awful, and we are not even sure if the opps make game (they may not have a heart fit since we have 3 and we have diamonds locked up against 3N). My main problem with it, though, is that partner is also white/red and he will misjudge the auction if it gets competitive. He will be looking for a save, and probably won't expect this hand for a 2S bid (if he does by partnership style then we have the problem of what to do with AQTxxx x xxx xxx etc).

In essence, you are debating the merits of pressure bidding. I don't claim to know better, but I will make the opposite case.

 

First of all, I won't do this unless partner will allow for this hand. If I as partner would raise to 4S on four trumps without shortness and it goes for 1100, I would apologize for being undisciplined. And yes, this does mean that we can't save as often (you were pretty careful with your hand above though -- give me the J of spades and it's an obvious 3S bid :lol: ), but so be it. And yes, I wouldn't do it if it would make me puke when it comes back with a double...

 

Now for the upsides: Of course it is harder for opponents to judge when your WJO are more wide-ranging. Often opponents get pushed into a 23 HCP 3NT game by a preempt; if you only preempt when you believe that their 3NT is making that doesn't seem a good thing for your side. Here, it is not unlikely that clubs is their best fit, but after 2S they may well just settle for 3NT instead of finding their club slam. In that respect the reward can never be greater than white vs red opposite a passed partner after RHO has opened a badly defined standard 1m opening in a suit that is certainly not their best fit.

 

As an aside, I wonder whether I would rather pass than bid 1S here. 1S doesn't achieve much unless we capture a big fit, does it?

 

Arend

[whereagles]

1. Hum.. anything can be right or wrong. Depends on how I feel at the moment. Right now, I guess I'd try 4♦. Dunno why, though.

 

2. Obvious 2♠ bid in my book :D

 

3. Obvious 2NT bid in my book :) :) Reason: pard is marked with 9-11 hcp and didn't bid 2♠. So he doesn't have 5 of them. Trying the 4-3 spade fit is nice, but why do that when there's a good chance of a minor-suit fit?

[luke warm]

1. 5♥

 

2. 1♠

 

3. pass

[Kalvan14]

1. clearly a distributional freak. I like 7C. maybe it will cost 200 more, but it can make, and might push oppos too high.

2. 2♠ for me, but the alternative is pass. This is a hand that 3rd hand I'd like to open 2♠ weak, so I'd be consistent.

3. at MP is a clear double, at Imp not so clear. If the match is going good, i would not rock the boat, and pass. if i need to fight for each and every Imp, I'd double, hoping not to play 2♠ in a 3-3 fit :D

[Fluffy]

1: 7, what else?

2: pass, easy.

3: Double, but I know I play too much MP

[Robert]

Hello Jlall

 

I have already read(in another post) that you do not use the LAW. I did not put in that 'LAW' message for those that do not use the LAW. It was meant for anyone that wanted information about the LAW)

 

Mike Lawrence also does not agree with the LAW. Larry Cohen(who wrote 3{?} books about the LAW sometimes gives answers in Bridge World which do not appear to agree with his books about the LAW) They are two of my favorite authors and if you agree with either man you are in good company.

 

I play bridge in one of the three strongest major city areas of American bridge. Most IMP players do not double for one trick sets in America. The bigger doubled contracts that you suggest are common, only happen in extremely rare cases where I play.

 

If you follow the LAW, it suggests that you should bid after the other pair bids and raises to 2Hs. Sometimes they only have seven trumps. Sometimes they have 8 trumps. You do not get rich allowing the other pair to play in a freely bid 2M(most of the time anyway)

 

Which opponent makes the double after I balance? The opener who could only make a single raise or his partner who did not make a game try?

 

We recently had a post on what to bid(pass?) with an offshape double type hand with AQJx of spades and only two card heart support after a 1C(?) opening. The results were split. Some overcall a 4 card suit, some passed and some(?) doubled.

My style is to bid 1S(I do tell partner about my style) with a good suit and @ 12+HCPs.

 

Your argument that partner cannot hold good spades(and/or good HCPs?) looks somewhat strange if he was one of those players who 'passed' holding AQJx of spades and @13HCP.

 

Some of my partners do not overcall with a five card club suit when they hold 'non opening bid' values. When I balance, they sometimes produce a fair hand 'and' a 5 card suit. A good partner sometimes produces the cards needed to make my bidding look better than it is.

 

The other pair is also allowed back into the auction. When we do compete to either black contract, they sometimes will save us by bidding on.

 

Changing subjects to that 'miserable 2S jump overcall.' We would have been in complete agreement 'before' I read Partnership Bidding at Bridge(The Contested Auction) by Andrew Robson and Oliver Segal.

 

Their book is one of the best bridge books ever written(IMO) Players have responded with glowing comments whenever I mentioned the title. If you do not agree with their proposed methods, that is also fine with me.

 

They discuss many areas of competitive bidding. They outline methods and agreements in 'pressure bidding.' After discussion and agreement, I use their ideas and partner is expected to also 'adjust' his bidding to 'fit' the situation.

 

They recommend(I believe with the example hand) a 2S overcall at the vulnerablity mentioned. Partner is supposed to hold back somewhat 'because' of the presumed 'pressure bidding' that the 2S overcaller was using.

 

I might have misread the book, however, Arend(and others seem to agree with making a 2S bid) Maybe they have read the book and maybe their ideas just happen to agree.

 

Bidding is often just a matter of style. I used to make a lot on much stronger bids than I currently use. I play almost everything weak now 'except' a few cue bids.

 

Regards,

Robert