Flame Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 My general rule is that the 3rd suit isnt natural and not showing a 3 suiter, its either semi natural, or its asks for stopper, or its a cue bid showing suppport for partner last suit, Do you have a better rule or set of rules ?Examples1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H 1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D1C-1D-1H-1NT-2SIm not looking for optimal answer for those 4 example, im looking for a set of rules or a logic that will help me with the next 10 sequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 CAn't help, I play all bids by opener as natural or semi natural Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H Artificial.I cannot think of anythink but a good artificial raise of pard's minor.Opener has already limited his hand to a minimum, and responder has suggested a signoff in diamonds. The only reason to keep the auction open can be based on reevaluation based on a fit. 1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D Is 3C invitational or signoff ?If it is signoff, the case is similar to the above (3D shows a fit in responder's long minor). If it is invitational, it can be used either to checkback for (half?) stopper, or to show a fit. 1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D Artificial.Seems like a 5-4-0-4 shape with some slam ambitions. 1C-1D-1H-1NT-2S Natural, 4-4-0-5 shape, reverse strength. ========================================== The rules I can think of are:- when both opener have limited their hands, but opener still keeps the auction alive, that can be based only on some sort of fit.- when opener (or responder) bypasses 3NT with a new suit, that implies some sort of fit, usually (but not necessarily) for the last bid major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 1S-1NT-2C-2D-2HNatural, showing a very good hand. 2C does not limit opener's hand (this is the SAYC and 2/1 forum). 1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D Similar, but very unusual. A case can be made for treating this one as artificial (as opposed to the first and last, which I think should be natural). 1S-1NT-3C-3H-4DCuebid for hearts by default. 1C-1D-1H-1NT-2SAgain, shows a very good hand and something like 3-4-1-5 shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 BTW, I think 5-3-0-5 is a more reasonable expectation for hand 3, as with 5-4-0-4 we would usually bid hearts first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 My general rule is that the 3rd suit isnt natural and not showing a 3 suiter, its either semi natural, or its asks for stopper, or its a cue bid showing suppport for partner last suit, Do you have a better rule or set of rules ?Examples1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H 1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D1C-1D-1H-1NT-2SIm not looking for optimal answer for those 4 example, im looking for a set of rules or a logic that will help me with the next 10 sequences. Here's what I like: 1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H - This shows a heart fragment and tends to run from diamonds. 5=3=1=4 would be typical. 1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D - Still natural - running from clubs; I'd expect 5=4=4=0. 1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D - Sounds like a cuebid for hearts to me; no new suits at the 4 level. 1C-1D-1H-1NT-2S - Ugh! What is 1♠ over 1♥ (natural and a one-round force, I hope)? Sounds like opener is patterning out with a 4=4=0=5 or 3=4=1=5 but in any case it shows at least an ace over a minimum. As far as a 'rule' goes - all four of these sequences are unique (maybe the 1st 2 aren't) so I wouldn't try to make any kind of universal applications here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 How about this rule: natural unless agreed it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 all natural except the 4D bid (cue). My rule is no new suits at the 4 level in unpreempted auctions (2C opener auctions can count as self-preempted). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 How about this rule: natural unless agreed it is not. what i see is all of you have different interpetations for many of the seqences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Hello Flame Without any other agreements, I like Fluffys' method. Suits are natural if that agreement is at all possible. I like to show my shape so partner can judge the degree of fit. Certain bids are 'alarm clock' bids. 1H-1NT-2m-2S* shows a good raise to 3m since partner did not bid 1H-1S. I recently 'converted' to a 'double transfer' like auction for 1M-1NT-2C-2D* that will show various hand types if partner will relay/puppet to 2Hs. I am willing to give up playing exacting 2Ds to better define many other auctions. I really like Al Roths' non forcing, new suit at the 3 level auctions in his Picture Bidding book. He trys to bid his three suiters 'including 5431 shapes(showing the 3 card fragment at the three level(with the required values present) and partner is allowed to pass or bid on as needed. Regards, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 1S-1NT-2C-2D-2HNatural, showing a very good hand. 2C does not limit opener's hand (this is the SAYC and 2/1 forum). Right, here we are talking SAYC or 2/1.That's why I think 2C is nonforcing over 1NT in these systems.If so, it does limit opener's hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Hello everyone 1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H can be played as natural with a very good hand. I would expect near jump shift values from my partner(17-18HCP) The 1S-1NT-2C bid is only limited by the fact that opener did not bid 1S-1NT-3C. Some play jump shifts as one round forces in standard. I play them as game forces, however, I do make an exception for letting partner pass 4m, if 3NT is unplayable. Regards, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 1S-1NT-2C-2D-2HNatural, showing a very good hand. 2C does not limit opener's hand (this is the SAYC and 2/1 forum). I thought 2C was nonforcing over 1NT.If so, it does limit opener's hand The range is very witdh in sayc or 2/1, something like good 10 to bad 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H - responder can pass 2C, so i'd play 2H as showing a 5314 hand 1S-1NT-2H-3C-3D - bidding out his shape? maybe 5=1=3=4 1S-1NT-3C-3H-4D - monster hand, void/stiff hearts... 5044 maybe 1C-1D-1H-1NT-2S - another good hand.. 4=4=1=4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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