Bemuda Bowl hand - 4S

[kgr]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sa874hk8dj73cq843&w=shat9652dt9842ca7&e=sqj32hj7dkq65ct65&s=skt965hq43dackj92]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

This is a hand from the Bermuda Bowl.

WE: Rodwell - Meckstroth

SN: Rubin - Ekeblad

Bidding:

2♣-(2♥)-DBl-(RDBL)

2♠-(3♦)-4♠-All Pass

Play:

West starts ♦'s for Souths Ace. South does now play a small ♠ and West does throw a small ♥.

Rubin did play the Ace from North and did go -1. Deep Finesse says that 4♠ can only be made by ducking a ♠ to East.

Is ducking the Spade A double dummy or is it the best play with these cards anyway when West does not follow ♠?

Can/should it be found at the table?

:rolleyes: And the most difficult question, but also most interesting for me: Can you explain in words - not be giving a sequence of tricks - why ducking the ♠A is best here? how to find this at the table?

(Probably difficult questions considering that Rubin did go -1)

[Robert]

Hello Kgr

 

At trick one you should plan the play of the hand. As additional information becomes available(during the hand) you adjust your line of play.

 

I suspect that Rubin might have simply made a mistake. It happens even at the highest levels. Someone forgets to count to 13 or claims with a trump ourstanding.

 

My partners(and myself) sometimes take a zero percent line of play. The line of play 'only works' if the outstanding SEVEN cards split 3-3!

 

When LHO showed out in trump, ducking a trick to RHO is certainly an option.

They will win a trump trick with QJxx and you might lose control 'if' they force you to ruff diamonds.

 

Ducking the spade to RHO lets you retain control of trumps. When you next regain the lead, you can draw trumps by 'hooking' RHO and claim your contract.

 

Are you a chess player? They often speak about 'losing' a tempo when playing chess. Sometimes the player who moves first forces a win. Sometimes the player who has to move must make a losing choice.

 

I expect that ducking a spade 'gains' a tempo. If you duck a spade to East, you retain control of trumps and can 'hook' them out of their other honor. Ducking a trick to East retains control of trumps while still being able to draw trumps.

 

I am not a big double dummy player. It appears that you have ten winners, 'if' you can draw trumps for one loser.

 

I tend to play differently 'at the table.' You are sometimes aware of what is going on at the table 'just' because you are 'reading' the players or their carding. The tempo of their play also sometimes 'gives' away a lot of information.

 

My first squeeze was telegraphed by my RHO twitching and also her very slow play. She 'knew' that a squeeze was in progress and she did not have a clue that nothing could stop that squeeze.

 

My table presense is not the best part of my game Sometimes I have a good idea of what is going on and sometimes I do not notice when a 'cow flys by.'

 

If this hand interests you, you might want to check into the subject of an 'inter finesse' using spot cards. There was a fairly famous hand in recent years where many people were surprised by how a fairly weak holding suddenly became an extra trick with no mistake made by the defense. Just good card reading.

 

Regards,

Robert

[Kalvan14]

Ducking spades into E hand is quite a normal play, nothing fancy, allowing to keep control in trumps. It just does not look like to be the best choice: the problem is that I don't think S can prevail if he is constantly forced in ♦; E/W have 3 possibilities of getting the lead (A♣, A♥, ♠).

If you duck the 1st ♠, E will return ♦. Next you need to get rid of A♣, and another ♦ comes back. Where are you going to park the 3rd♥?

 

Try another way, like Rubin did: A♠, and ♣. Now you can ruff the 3rd ♥, forcing the Q♠. I am not sure I have analysed all the permutations, but it looks to me a superior line

[kgr]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sa874hk8dj73cq843

♠	[space]
♥	at9652
♦	t9842
♣	a7

♠	qj32
♥	j7
♦	kq65
♣	t65

♠	kt965
♥	q43
♦	a
♣	kj92

 

this is a hand from the bermuda bowl.

we: rodwell - meckstroth

sn: rubin - ekeblad

bidding:

2♣-(2♥)-dbl-(rdbl)

2♠-(3♦)-4♠-all pass

play:

west starts ♦'s for souths ace. south does now play a small ♠ and west does throw a small ♥.

rubin did play the ace from north and did go -1. deep finesse says that 4♠ can only be made by ducking a ♠ to east.

is ducking the spade a double dummy or is it the best play with these cards anyway when west does not follow ♠?

can/should it be found at the table?

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/  and the most difficult question, but also most interesting for me: can you explain in words - not be giving a sequence of tricks - why ducking the ♠a is best here? how to find this at the table?

(probably difficult questions considering that rubin did go -1)

i have run this hand through jack. some observations:

- jack's advise - single dummy - is to duck the ♠a. double dummy this seems to be the only way to make.

i) if you duck the ♠a and opps retun a ♦ at every opportunity then that will lead to:

dealer: ????? vul: ???? scoring: unknown

♠ a87 ♥ k8 ♦ ♣ q84&w=shat965d98c7&e=sj32hj7d6ct6&s=skthq42dck92]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] At this moment you lead a [he] from South: I.1) If West ducks the [he]A then you play [he]K, finesse [sp] and another [sp], with [cl] to North, draw last trump from East with [sp]A and loose only a [he]. I.2) If West plays the [he]A then he can : I.2.1) return a [cl] or a [he] leading to a similar situation as I.1. play 2 rounds of [sp] from North. Cross back to North and get Easts last [sp]. I.2.2) return a [di]. You ruff in dummy and discard a [cl] from South. You now play one round of [sp] from North. Then 1 round of [he] and 2 rounds of [cl] -which East has to follow - ending in North: [space][hv=d=s&v=n&n=sa874hk8dj73cq843 ♠ [space] ♥ at9652 ♦ t9842 ♣ a7 ♠ qj32 ♥ j7 ♦ kq65 ♣ t65 ♠ kt965 ♥ q43 ♦ a ♣ kj92

this is a hand from the bermuda bowl.

we: rodwell - meckstroth

sn: rubin - ekeblad

bidding:

2♣-(2♥)-dbl-(rdbl)

2♠-(3♦)-4♠-all pass

play:

west starts ♦'s for souths ace. south does now play a small ♠ and west does throw a small ♥.

rubin did play the ace from north and did go -1. deep finesse says that 4♠ can only be made by ducking a ♠ to east.

is ducking the spade a double dummy or is it the best play with these cards anyway when west does not follow ♠?

can/should it be found at the table?

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/  and the most difficult question, but also most interesting for me: can you explain in words - not be giving a sequence of tricks - why ducking the ♠a is best here? how to find this at the table?

(probably difficult questions considering that rubin did go -1)

i have run this hand through jack. some observations:

- jack's advise - single dummy - is to duck the ♠a. double dummy this seems to be the only way to make.

i) if you duck the ♠a and opps retun a ♦ at every opportunity then that will lead to:

dealer: ????? vul: ???? scoring: unknown

♠ a87 ♥ k8 ♦ ♣ q84&w=shat965d98c7&e=sj32hj7d6ct6&s=skthq42dck92]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] II) If you don't duck [sp]A and then play [cl]A and [he]A away - with opps returning [di]'s then this leads to (having lost 2 tricks): [hv=d=s&v=n&n=sa874hk8dj73cq843 ♠ [space] ♥ at9652 ♦ t9842 ♣ a7 ♠ qj32 ♥ j7 ♦ kq65 ♣ t65 ♠ kt965 ♥ q43 ♦ a ♣ kj92

this is a hand from the bermuda bowl.

we: rodwell - meckstroth

sn: rubin - ekeblad

bidding:

2♣-(2♥)-dbl-(rdbl)

2♠-(3♦)-4♠-all pass

play:

west starts ♦'s for souths ace. south does now play a small ♠ and west does throw a small ♥.

rubin did play the ace from north and did go -1. deep finesse says that 4♠ can only be made by ducking a ♠ to east.

is ducking the spade a double dummy or is it the best play with these cards anyway when west does not follow ♠?

can/should it be found at the table?

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/  and the most difficult question, but also most interesting for me: can you explain in words - not be giving a sequence of tricks - why ducking the ♠a is best here? how to find this at the table?

(probably difficult questions considering that rubin did go -1)

i have run this hand through jack. some observations:

- jack's advise - single dummy - is to duck the ♠a. double dummy this seems to be the only way to make.

i) if you duck the ♠a and opps retun a ♦ at every opportunity then that will lead to:

dealer: ????? vul: ???? scoring: unknown

♠ a87 ♥ k8 ♦ ♣ q84&w=shat965d98c7&e=sj32hj7d6ct6&s=skthq42dck92]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Here you can't make anymore. You will always loose 2 more tricks. Basically you will have to play ♠'s from North. But after that East is left with ♠Jx. If you play one more ♠ then East will win with the J and return a ♦ that you have to ruff in North. This will give the 4th trick for EW with ♠ ruff later. If you don't play another ♠ then East will also get a ruff with small ♠ and the 4th trick with the J. In this case: If you play a ♥ and ruff in North then East will not overruff. ================================================ It did the above analysis using Jack, but I'd like to know the rationale behind this. Now my question remains: - What is the difference between ducking the ♠A and not ducking it. Is this simply double dummy or is there a logic behind ducking the ♠A? Also if you put the ♠A then you still have control with the ♠K in South, don't you? So saying that ducking the Ace keeps you control does not really explain it for me.

[Fluffy]

I think ducking is best simply because you need to ruff a ♥ with the Ace.

[kgr]

I think ducking is best simply because you need to ruff a ♥ with the Ace.

This is the kind of answer I'm looking after (not sure if it is possible though). I've following problem with you answer:

If you don't duck the ace then you have only 2 loosers when getting to the end position:

7

-

-

x

.....Jx

.....-

.....-

.....-

T

Q

-

-

You play a club from North and east can only make one more trick; similar as not ducking the ace?

Apparantly - analyzing the hand double dummy - you can not reach this end-position when you don't duck ♠A. But why is that?

[Finch]

I'm struggling to articulate why it's right other than 'general principles' which isn't very good.

 

My thoughts were similar to Fluffy's. Without thinking about how the play is going to pan out, at trick one you think:

 

Assuming spades aren't 4-0, I have four trump tricks in hand, the ace of diamonds, 3 club tricks, a heart and a heart ruff in dummy. As clubs could easily be 4-1 (much more likely than spades 4-0) I had better start on trumps straight away. From the lead LHO could be 1651, and I don't want to lose a club ruff to a singleton trump.

 

So you play a spade, and LHO blows. Now you have a rethink.

 

I still have the same 10 tricks because I can play spades towards hand, but after the 2H overcall it's quite likely that hearts are 6-2, and my heart ruff will get over-ruffed. Does that matter if it's with a trump trick? No, it shouldn't do so... but against that, why concede an over-ruff if I don't need to?

 

Suppose I take the first spade with the ace. At some point I will have to play another trump towards hand. RHO will split. If I duck I am in danger of the heart ruff being over-ruffed. If I take it then I am in danger of RHO being able to draw trumps and cash a diamond later.

 

Against that, what can go wrong if I duck? I might lose a club ruff if RHO has a doubleton but I don't think there's anything I can do about that, whatever I play to this trick.

[Finch]

p.s. any double-dummy line that involves playing a heart up, RHO rising ace and you unblocking the king, is unlikely to be found at the table.