4th seat systems?

[bestguru]

I had the fourth seat stuck in my head for a few days now. A couple of questions for you all:

 

1) Since your goals in 4th seat are different is it worth mucking around with your system?

 

2) Do you have any links to 4th seat systems or discussions on 4th seat bidding?

 

 

I've been pretty swamped the last few days and when I've grabbed a break here or there I kept finding myself working on a fourth seat system to play with 2/1. If it makes more sense, I was thinking of playing it with a 10-13 nt in 1st to 3rd. It has attained "magic bullet" status, so I'm in need of some more objective opinions.

 

1♣/♦/♥ - that suit and spades 4+/4+

1nt - takeout double of opps imaginary spade bid

1♣ 1nt - 16-18 balanced

1♣ 2nt - 19-20 balanced

2nt 21-22 balanced

2♣/♦/♥ - normal 4th seat weak 2 bids in that suit

1♠ either a 4th seat weak 2 in spades or a gf hand (will bid 2♠ over responder with the weak hand)

-- 1nt -♣ or both majors

---- 2♣ - forced unleass weak

------ 2♦ - shows both majors

------ 2♥/♠/nt - clubs and 4+ cards in the suit under

------ 3♣ - just clubs

-- 2♣ - transfer or ♠ and a minor

---- 2♦ - forced unless weak

------ 2♥ - spades and a minor

------ 2♠/2nt/3♦ diamonds and 4+ cards in the suit under

------ 3♣ just diamonds

-- 2♦ - transfer or hearts and a minor

---- 2♥ - forced unless weak

------ 2♠ - hearts and a clubs

------ 2nt - hearts and diamonds

------ 3♣ just hearts

--2♥ - balanced

--2♠ - minimum (0-3)

 

or maybe some other structure over the 1♠ bid. I'm not sure what to do with the 2♠ bid. maybe showing a solid suit suitable for a gambling 3nt bid.

 

edit: added suit symbols

[P_Marlowe]

1) If you have th brain capacity,

do it, else dont do it.

Remember: if the match gets long

and you get tired, will you remeber

the difference?

 

2) No.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[bearmum]

1. for me not worth mucking around with my system (Precision) as I have sufficient to remember anyway :lol:

 

2. NO

[Al_U_Card]

IMHO just knowing what hands should be passed out when you have a "bid" is plenty for 4th seat considerations.....

[awm]

Fourth seat openings aren't that common in bridge today, because of the prevalence of light openings (especially in 3rd seat) and aggressive preempts. Your "goal" in fourth seat isn't really all that different than in other positions -- you want to bid your games and slams, and try to go positive on the partscore deals. The only real change I can see is that the idea of "finding a good sacrifice" is not so good, since you can always pass the hand out. Anyways, I don't think it's worth playing a radically different system in fourth seat (benefits are slim, not worth remembering it, better to work on other sequences).

 

There are basically three types of hands where you'd like to open in 4th seat:

 

(1) Strong hands. These are actually a bit more frequent than they'd otherwise be. It's nice to have good methods for dealing with them. There is some advantage to playing something like a strong club in 4th seat, since it is much less likely that opponents have suitable hands to intervene at a high level (they didn't open with preempts after all). On the other hand, having good slam investigation tools can be a lot of memorization, and it may be better to stick with whatever you normally use than to define (for example) a relay system to be used after fourth seat strong ♣ opens (when not playing strong club in any other seat).

 

(2) Hands in the 9-12 point range with a long suit or useful shape, where you don't really envision game opposite a passed partner (barring some sort of super-fit) but you have very good prospects for buying the partial. I tend to open these hands with 2M. I do not like the treatment where two of a major is "intermediate" (some range like 11-15) because this means extra stuff to remember for partner, tends to give partner tough judgement calls that come up too infrequently for substantial experience to develop, and leave open the question of what to do with a hand like Kx KJT9xx Qxxx x (yes I open 2♥ in 4th seat on this hand).

 

(3) Balanced-ish hands with a bit more than your fair share of the values (something like 11-14). Often times your side holds a slight majority of the points and can make a partscore, but if you open 1-minor (especially when not holding 4♠) too often you get outcompeted and end up going -110. One interesting treatment is to play weak notrumps in 4th (some range like 11-14 is good, not so much 10-12 especially if partner would've opened 10-12). Frequently you buy the contract for 1NT; you're not going to get doubled by two passed hands and people open enough 5-5 ten counts and the like that often they just sell to it. This might lead to a +90 instead of a +110 when you miss a suit fit, but it also maximizes the chances of going plus on the board (which is really the goal anyway).

 

Hmm... strong ♣, weakish NT, and intermediate two bids. Seems a lot like what I play in other seats anyway. :)

[Kalvan14]

Nice, why don't you play it in all seats?

I would be very cautious in playing this system in 4th seat only: the overburden of conventions [not to speak of the different systemic approach] makes it a bit dangerous [and likely there is no "value for trouble"].

 

I doubt you would be allowed to play this system at MP, in any case.

[Free]

I personally also don't feel the need to change the system. We play light openings in 1&2, and solid openings in 3&4, and we can always pass ofcourse. ;)

 

If you want to change something, just change the 2♦ and 2M openings to 12-14 with 6+ card. This helps a lot to bid intermediate hands (15-17) without getting too high. There's no need for weak openings anyway...

 

I don't know any links, and I think there just aren't any at all. Quite understandable imo, since 4th seat openings rarely come up, and most of the time you have quite a heavy hand if it comes up at all. So why waste so much energy on such a specific part of the game which seldom comes up? Common sense helps more than changing the entire system I think.