3-level takeout double

[tysen2k]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=skqxhakqjxdxcakjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(3♦) - P - (P) - Dbl

(P) - 3♠ - (P) - ?[/hv]

 

What now?

[Guest Jlall]

4H here would show approximately this shape, however it could be MUCH less in HCP (17 would certainly be acceptable).

 

4D here would agree spades...and I only have 3 of them.

 

Fun hand...

 

I'm just going to bid 4H. I could miss a slam this way pretty easily though. I need an ace and something to do with the clubs, and on the down side I have no 5 level safety and there was no diamond raise. I'm not going to play pard for the perfect cards.

[Blofeld]

Nasty hand to bid.

 

I feel obliged to make some kind of slam try [i tend to verge towards the optimistic, and am closer to blasting 6 than bidding 4♠), but I'm not sure what.

 

How about 5♥?

[Al_U_Card]

I kinda like 5H as a general push but would this hand have opened 2C? (std.) If so, pard can have a decent 6 count that would stop in game after a mundane uninterrupted sequence so......what would 4D show? (both iso the dbl and after the 3S response?)

[mikeh]

I am not sure that 4♦ agrees ♠... ok, I AM sure that it does not :huh:

 

You may have an even bigger hand than you have and need to make a forcing bid. Having said that, partner will rebid even a 4 card ♠ suit here, with minimum values, because either you agree ♠ or you are so strong that you will make another bid anyway. As a matter of frequency, 4♦ will be based on ♠ more often than not. However, if partner bids 4♥ over 4♦, I would take that as a suit, with a hand too weak to stretch to 4♦ last time.

 

Having said that, I agree with 4♥. An immediate 4♥ would be a pure hand, while this sequence shows equivalent playing strength but flexibility. Partner can bid 4♠ with, say, a weak 6 card suit and short ♥.

[Guest Jlall]

I am not sure that 4♦ agrees ♠... ok, I AM sure that it does not :huh:

Interesting how you can be so sure of this. Also interested how you can play 4D=maybe spades, maybe not. 4S by pard may be extra spades, may be just 4. 4H may be a cue, may be a suit. What about 5C over 4D? Suit? Cue? Either? Do you EVER set trumps at any point or do you just keep Xing and cuebidding and pard keeps making natural/cuebid bids. Maybe over 4H we can bid 5D and still not set trumps and expect partner to "evaluate" when he knows nothing. And maybe we can be so arrogant as to say we are "sure" what a bid does and does not show when we are just out to lunch. Maybe. :D

 

Edit: added a smiley so it negates everything I said clearly.

Edited November 1, 2005 by Jlall

[mikeh]

Sorry to get you upset, Justin. But how do you play a rebid of 4♠ over a 4♦ cue... if 4♦ promises ♠, is your 4♠ bid any different from mine? I doubt it.

 

Would your 4♥ call now be a cue? What would you bid over the takeout double with 4=4 in the majors and a weak hand? Always 3♥, or would you sometimes bid 3♠? Would that depend on suit quality, or on whether you anticipate that you may get/need the opportunity to bid both suits?

 

In the meantime, you (as doubler)may be holding KQx AKQx xx AKJx for your takeout double. What do you bid over 3♠ then?

 

I was not trying to be arrogant (ok, it is possible that I was being arrogant without really trying...). It is just that, rather than being sure that 4♦ agrees ♠ (as I perceived you were) I felt that it was necessarily ambiguous. I do not like such a treatment: it would be nice to play it as clearly slamming in ♠, but I felt that it would be more useful to play it as a big hand, asking for more clarification.

 

Thus I would allow a 4♥ bid by advancer to be natural, not a cue-bid in support of ♠.

 

Your interpretation will probably (certainly?) be better for bidding ♠ slams, but I think (and am not sure) that mine might be better for choice of games decisions. And after partner's 3♠ call, I suspect (but am not sure) that choice of games may be more useful.

 

Finally, I had hoped (mistakenly, obviously) that my :huh: after my comment indicated that I was not entirely serious(in the sense that anything else is silly): it was and is my belief that 4♦ does not agree ♠, but I am hardly trying to say that my understanding is the only logical way to play it.

[Al_U_Card]

Would not the dbl followed by the Q-bid tend to show the hand that wanted to bid 4D but had enough disparity in the major suit holdings to need more info before committing to a 4-3 fit in S when there is a 5-3 fit in H (or the 5-3 fit in S instead of the.......ow.

[Al_U_Card]

What now?

Based on this hand, and your icon, are you the gunman or the kitten? :huh:

[han]

Hmm, everybody is bidding 4H and saying that it should show such a hand. What would you bid with a very strong hand and long hearts? What would you bid with a very strong 1-5-2-5 shape? Som questions:

 

What does (3D)-p-p-4H show? How wide ranging is this? Is it the same as (3D)-4H?

 

Similarly, what do (2H)-3S and (2H)-4S show? Is it a good rule to say that these bids show that you are roughly 1 useful card short of your contract?

 

Over a 2H-preempt you can cuebid and bid spades later to show a hand that's even to good for a direct 4S bid, what do you do here? All questions and no answers from me, sorry Tysen.

[Guest Jlall]

Hmm, everybody is bidding 4H and saying that it should show such a hand. What would you bid with a very strong hand and long hearts? What would you bid with a very strong 1-5-2-5 shape? Som questions:

 

What does (3D)-p-p-4H show? How wide ranging is this? Is it the same as (3D)-4H?

 

Similarly, what do (2H)-3S and (2H)-4S show? Is it a good rule to say that these bids show that you are roughly 1 useful card short of your contract?

 

Over a 2H-preempt you can cuebid and bid spades later to show a hand that's even to good for a direct 4S bid, what do you do here? All questions and no answers from me, sorry Tysen.

Will let mikeh explain. :huh:

[mikeh]

Hmm, everybody is bidding 4H and saying that it should show such a hand. What would you bid with a very strong hand and long hearts? What would you bid with a very strong 1-5-2-5 shape? Som questions:

 

What does (3D)-p-p-4H show? How wide ranging is this? Is it the same as (3D)-4H?

 

Similarly, what do (2H)-3S and (2H)-4S show? Is it a good rule to say that these bids show that you are roughly 1 useful card short of your contract?

 

Over a 2H-preempt you can cuebid and bid spades later to show a hand that's even to good for a direct 4S bid, what do you do here? All questions and no answers from me, sorry Tysen.

Will let mikeh explain. :huh:

not a chance: being called both arrogant and out to lunch in a single post has quite ruined my appetite for posting my views

[Al_U_Card]

A physicist would invoke the Heisenberg Uncertanty Principle such that, "Once I make the bid, I change it's meaning, while his physicist partner would cite the duality of the physical realm and state that the bid can have 2 meanings simultaneously.".... :huh:

[Impact]

I use the cue bid following the simple response to deny primary support (4 cards) in a GF hand, so partner will show any additional distributional feature....

 

I HATE making a takeout double with 5+5+ (albeit 5530 with void in their suit and minimum for the level is a potential exception).

 

With the hand in question you can underbid by making a 4H call, or make a 4D bid which risks overboard......I would risk the 4D bid albeit having sympathy for 4H.

 

BTW all jumps following this start I would play as slamtries agreeing S.....

 

Whether the judgment call is sound or not it simplifies most auctions...

[Kalvan14]

A tough one: pre-empts sometimes succeed.

This said, and considering that 3♠ does not promise anything [maybe not even 4♠ :lol: ], I will content myself with a 4♥ bid.

I may loose a slam, true; the 5-level is not safe either.

If pard bids again, that's great. If not, it's karma.

[pclayton]

A cue bid indicates the ability to control the auction. I would assume it shows spade support, but I suppose there can be some offshape Rock that can't be handled otherwise.

 

You hold: AQ, AKQxx, Ax, AKJx. RHO opens 3♦, you double and pard bids 3♠. Your call?

[tysen2k]

Question for those who bid 4♦:

 

After you bid 4♦, what would 4♠ by partner show?

[SoTired]

Unless I have understandings about what the q-bid shows, I am not wasting my time.

4H in this situation shows a good hand with 3s and 5h and concern about which major.

However, this hand is a monster. Our singleton is in the opps suit, so any strength that partner has will be useful.

 

I don't care that I don't have 4spades. Since I am short in diam, my hand will be doing the ruffing. This hand makes 6S opposite very little from partner. AJ10x xx xxx xxxx and 6S is all but cold.

 

I am taking the risk and bidding 4N over 3S and bidding 6S if partner shows a keycard and sign-off in 5S if none.

 

If partner has 2 keycards, I don't want to bid the grand unless partner has the QC and I don't think partner could have 2 aces and QC and not bid 4S over the double. So over 5H, bidding 6C risks partner jumping to 7S with a doubleton club. So I'll still just settle for 6S

[awm]

On the given hand I would bid 4♥; agree with Justin and Mike that it shows this type of hand. Note that despite the extra strength, 6♥ may be in trouble on diamond leads (say partner has something like Axxx xxx xxxx xx, despite the lack of top losers, are we really sure 6♥ will make given the likely bad breaks in various suits).

 

After the 3♦ opening, in direct seat or after two passes, I prefer to play:

 

4♦ = any (strong) two-suiter, 5-5 or better. Partner's responses are pass/correct generally.

4♥/4♠ = strong, something like a "power double" this is around 2.5-4 losers with a very good suit.

3NT = to play, either a running suit+stopper, or a (semi)-balanced hand without 3-3 or better majors.

X = takeout, pretty much guarantees 3+ in each major; no "off-shape" doubles with big hands

[mikeh]

Question for those who bid 4♦:

 

After you bid 4♦, what would 4♠ by partner show?

A strong desire to play 4♠ opposite a slam try in support of ♠ (should 4♦ be based on a fit) and denial of 4♥ (in case 4♠ was merely a big hand).

The consensus, to the extent that there is one, is that 4♦ does not guarantee ♠ but that it may deliver them. In either case, 4♦ is a truly big hand. Advancer's first job is to bid shape if that can be done below 4♠, to rebid 4♠ if lacking biddable shape and holding a bad hand in context, and to make a move beyond 4♠ with a good hand: 5♣, for example, would show a near 4♠ initial bid and a ♣ suit. Advancer (to answer one of Justin's earlier questions) is NOT cue-bidding over 4♦, but showing (as best as he can) shape and/or relative strength.

 

An interesting question (interesting to me, anyway) is what would 4N mean over 4♦?