Action?

[adhoc3]

Non-Vul. vs Non-Vul.

 

You hold: QT983 Q4 2 98765. Assume all conventions off on 4th seat. Will you take action?

 

If change Qs to Ks: KT983 K4 2 98765, any difference?

[awm]

In both cases I think it's pretty likely that 2♠ will play well, and don't really want to defend 1NT. The problem is, I don't really expect partner (who could easily hold a strong NT himself) to leave me in 2♠ if I bid it. So I'll pass, a bit sadly, and defend.

[Guest Jlall]

2S. Unlike Adam I do expect to be left there even if pard is strong (which he undoubtedly is). He should know that I can just have a shapely hand and am mainly bidding his hand for him. But this ties into my philosophy that bidding over strong NTs is to obstruct them or compete for the partscore. Game is only a thought if we have a big fit. Others may disagree with this.

 

BTW imo this is the best type of hand for balancing. 1N and spade contracts are both likely makes, as opposed to a hand like KQxxx KJx Qxx Jx (which I would not balance on).

[whereagles]

If pard would have doubled 1NT with 16+, I might pass. Otherwise I might bid. With both hands.

[pigpenz]

since i have already been accused of cheating once for balancing on a 4hcp hand on a similar action :( of course i would balance! partner rates to have a near 1nt opener himself. I would bid 2♠ cause it takes the max bidding space.

 

even if acution went

1nt p 2♦ p

2♥ p p i would still balance

 

this is for golfacer ;)

[mikeh]

Pass

 

When you hold nothing, bid nothing.

 

It's ok to say that partner has a good hand... of course he does. But surely he is not barred by your bidding?

 

If I knew that partner, with a ♠ fit and 13-15 points, would pass, then I bid ;)

 

Expecting partner to pass here is impossible: how do you tell him that it is responder, not you, who holds the majority of the missing hcp??

 

While -1 or -2 at 3 or 4♠ may break even, it stops being fun if they double.

[Al_U_Card]

Pass

When you hold nothing, bid nothing.

While -1 or -2 at 3 or 4♠ may break even, it stops being fun if they double.

Whenever I feel the urge to bid on this kind of a hand, I think, "When I pass 1NT with 7 hcp and a four card major, why do they never bid 2 of it after I pass?????" doh!

[tysen2k]

I think the scoring makes a difference. This is an easy 2♠ at MP, but not so easy at IMPs. I think I would pass if I can't make a convential bid, but it's close.

 

Tysen

[pigpenz]

Pass

 

When you hold nothing, bid nothing.

 

It's ok to say that partner has a good hand... of course he does. But surely he is not barred by your bidding?

 

If I knew that partner, with a ♠ fit and 13-15 points, would pass, then I bid :D

 

Expecting partner to pass here is impossible: how do you tell him that it is responder, not you, who holds the majority of the missing hcp??

 

While -1 or -2 at 3 or 4♠ may break even, it stops being fun if they double.

i bet if your partner opened one nt you wouldnt pass, matchpoints is a different beast entirely! Vary seldom do youget a good score whenthe opps bid two make two. Down 1 can be good bridge at matchpoints and down one for them can even be better for your side.

[Kalvan14]

2♠, without any doubt. I might even think of a game if pard has the right 14-15 HCP. And yes, I am sure that pard will not go forward with 12 HCP and quacks; and also that he will not "save" me :D

 

The bid is the same at both IMPs and MPs

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

with your given restrictions I pass the

1st hand and go in with 2nd.

 

Personnaly I would go in with the

1st as well, because for me conventions

are not off in 4th seat, i.e. it would be

possible for me to show spade + another.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

Conventions off makes this a real problem, I have no problem bidding a 2♠ showing ♠+minor here. I might pass if I have no way to show that my hand is 2-suited and remind myself to talk about this with partner so that next time I do have such a method.

[Al_U_Card]

Playing CANT, the 2S bid shows S and C, but I am still nervous about bidding on air.

[han]

I like to agree with partner that we give up on strength-games after the opponents open a strong notrump. The idea is to come in as often as possible without getting burned by partner. Partner may only try for game when we find a good major-suit fit. Having this agreement I would like to make a 2-suited bid even with the 4-count. Obviously, this agreement gives up on the occasional odd game.

 

This is not your philosophy, as your conventions are off in fourth seat. So I vote for pass when playing with you.

[han]

Let me add one more thing:

 

Playing lionel the hand is easy: double to show spades and another. Partner will only make a game try with good spades, and then we should be fairly safe at the 3-level.

 

Playing Meckwell I bid 2C, showing clubs and a major. Partner can bid 2D to ask for the major, and make a gam try with a good fit (one of the reasons I like to play that you cannot have both minors when you bid 2C).

 

If I bid 2D to show diamonds and a major the situation is a bit more difficult. With one good major and tolerance for the other partner bids the OTHER. So 2H is pass or correct, and over 2S partner can make a game try. 2S is also pass or correct, but it shows game interest in hearts. This way you don't go higher than 2NT without a certain major suit fit.

 

Of course, you are still in difficulty when partner does not have tolerance for one of the majors. The goal is not to bid constructively, it is to come in often and be a nuisance. But whenever possible we want to be able to bid our games.

[Kalvan14]

The goal is not to bid constructively, it is to come in often and be a nuisance. But whenever possible we want to be able to bid our games.

I do share completely this philosophy: get in, and be a nuisance for opponents. Keep them out of balance. This hand can also work: suppose they double 2S, expecting our honors under the 1 N opener. They would not be pleasantly surprised.

[adhoc3]

I like to agree with partner that we give up on strength-games after the opponents open a strong notrump. The idea is to come in as often as possible without getting burned by partner.

 

I think this is the point of “all conventions off at 4th seat”. The safety of balancing with 1 suiter is somewhat promised by PD’s strength. So just bid it when having a decent suit, or just double when having some decent honors. The risk of being punished is limited.

 

For CAPP players, it could be quite unnecessary to self-raise to 3 level to find a minor part score AT BALANCE PLACE. I wonder why so many profiles stated: “CAPP” in BBO. Isn’t DONT more appropriate against strong NT? Meckwell’s approach is DONT alike.

[mike777]

I like to agree with partner that we give up on strength-games after the opponents open a strong notrump. The idea is to come in as often as possible without getting burned by partner.

 

I think this is the point of “all conventions off at 4th seat”. The safety of balancing with 1 suiter is somewhat promised by PD’s strength. So just bid it when having a decent suit, or just double when having some decent honors. The risk of being punished is limited.

 

For CAPP players, it could be quite unnecessary to self-raise to 3 level to find a minor part score AT BALANCE PLACE. I wonder why so many profiles stated: “CAPP” in BBO. Isn’t DONT more appropriate against strong NT? Meckwell’s approach is DONT alike.

Have no idea why conventions off in 4th seat is off....geez if playing Dont or modified dont or meckwell in second seat ...do the same in balance...come on.NV bid something..bid.

[adhoc3]

Have no idea why conventions off in 4th seat is off....geez if playing Dont or modified dont or meckwell in second seat ...do the same in balance...come on.NV bid something..bid.

 

It's funny what really happened. PD's profile addressed nothing against 1NT.

 

1NT--pass--pass--2♣(me)

2♦--pass--pass--2♠

pass--3♠!!--all pass.

 

PD had something like Ax AKJTx xxx Qxx, and the opener had 6 cards ♦.

I had no idea why PD didn't move right after 1NT or 2♦, but raise ♠ to 3? -- maybe I did too much made him confused with my 'strength', sryp!. 3♠ went 1 down (should more), +1 or 2 imp. :)

[Fluffy]

It is normally right to balance 1NT whenever you have a singleton, the reason is: partner will lead the singleton if you don't :)

[han]

I like to agree with partner that we give up on strength-games after the opponents open a strong notrump. The idea is to come in as often as possible without getting burned by partner.

 

I think this is the point of “all conventions off at 4th seat”. The safety of balancing with 1 suiter is somewhat promised by PD’s strength. So just bid it when having a decent suit, or just double when having some decent honors. The risk of being punished is limited.

 

For CAPP players, it could be quite unnecessary to self-raise to 3 level to find a minor part score AT BALANCE PLACE. I wonder why so many profiles stated: “CAPP” in BBO. Isn’t DONT more appropriate against strong NT? Meckwell’s approach is DONT alike.

Your reasoning seems backwards. Most conventions (lets just forget about capp, who still plays that these days??? :)) allow you to come in more frequently over 1NT.

 

Taking two free bids with two queens should be enough to get any partner excited, but here partner should probably restrain herself.

[Al_U_Card]

Taking two free bids with two queens should be enough to get any partner excited, but here partner should probably restrain herself.

I usually need rope to restrain my partners....lol

[mikeh]

The goal is not to bid constructively, it is to come in often and be a nuisance. But whenever possible we want to be able to bid our games.

I do share completely this philosophy: get in, and be a nuisance for opponents. Keep them out of balance. This hand can also work: suppose they double 2S, expecting our honors under the 1 N opener. They would not be pleasantly surprised.

I fully agree that the primary goal of bidding DIRECTLY over a strong notrump is obstructive. But how does a thin balance here interfere with the opponents' bidding? They have passed out 1N. They have narrowly defined responder's hand: almost certainly no 5 card major, almost certainly no 6 card minor, somewhere between 0 and a mediocre 8 count. You step in now on light values (unable to show the shape) and you give the opps an easy decision, while giving your partner a potentially tough one.

 

The only convincing reason I have seen posted so far, in favour of opening, is the fear of getting the wrong lead. This is not to be underestimated, and it I were playing DONT, for example, I would happily bid 2♣, expecting to get the chance to bid 2♠. But playing no methods, and expecting partner to have some modest red suit length (because of the opps' red suit silence) I hope for 1 fit but do not expect two fits. Bidding 2♠, when wrong, is likely to be fatally wrong (suppose they double, expecting their honours to be over ours... and they find out that they hold all the missing honours... won't they be pleasantly surprised? :) )

 

Equally, bidding 2♣, natural, even if it 'works' in the auction, is not likely to inspire a good lead.

 

So I still pass

[han]

I think that we are basically saying the same thing mikeh, but let me clarify my comment.

 

I said the goal is to be a nuisance, and this includes not letting them play in 1NT. 1NT is perhaps the hardest contract to defend against, not only does the lead often give away a trick, declarer can also often score an extra trick in the later play. Often passing out 1NT at these colors (none VUL) is not winning bridge at any form of scoring.

 

A good reason to play DONT (or similar) in passout seat too.