How does one bid this?

[ArcLight]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=s8hkq94dakt852c82&s=saq653haj6d7cak64]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

North opens 1 Diamond.

 

How should this be bid?

 

 

 

 

 

 

(We didn't reach slam, most did, and made it)

 

[mike777]

1d=1s

2d=3c

3nt=p seems ok...if not playing strong jump shifts.

 

I do not try for slam because of misfits and my partners do not open sound.

[Mr. Dodgy]

i play SJS, so:

 

1♦-2♠-3♦-3NT

[Guest Jlall]

I like the above auction.

 

edit: mike777s auction, it was the one above me when I posted I thought :D

[HeartA]

I like the above auction.

Which auction?

 

I would suggest:

1D - 1S

2D - 3C

3N - 4N

ppp

 

I wouldn't pass 3N holding South's hand.

[luke warm]

1h : 1nt

2d : 2s

3d : 4h

 

if i have to open 1d first, 3nt would be reached probably.. 4h should make anything from 10 to 12 tricks, depending on the lead

[Guest Jlall]

The way I learned strong jumpshifts (and admittedly I have never actually played them) a jumpshift showed either:

 

Self sufficient suit

fit

big balanced hand with 5(6) of that suit.

 

This qualifies for none of those.

[ArcLight]

I was South, after pard rebid his ♦, I figured:

* he was showing a minimum, so it was unlikely we had 33 HCP for slam

* in the absence of HCP, we probably didn't have a fitting long suit we could run for extra tricks

* with a pick up pard, I was concerned that we would have a bididng disaster at a high level, where he mistook a cue bid for a suit and we ended up in a 4-2 fit at the 4 level.

 

1♦ - 1♠

2♦ - I bid 3NT with the 2 tenaces to protect (♥ and ♠). I wanted to bid 3♣ but was concerned we might have a problem.

 

Result: 3NT making 6

 

 

Most others ended up in 6NT. We got a bad score in IMPS (losing 7 IMPS)

 

With a regular partner I may have considered exploring for a slam, but with a pick up pard, I was afraid we'd get stuck in some bad contarct, going down 1.

 

 

I accept the blame, I was just wondering if my reasoning was faulty.

 

 

As for Strong Jump Shifts, with the Mike Lawrence 2/1 system there are 3 types, definately not worth trying them without discussion! Also, since this was a SAYC pick up pard, if I bid 2 Spades, did I really have a strong enough spade suit?

[G_R__E_G]

You've got some awfully good players all signing off below slam, so I don't think you should feel too bad about it. :) To me the north hand is on the border between rebidding 2♦ and 3♦. If my partner rebid 2♦ like yours did I probably would have signed off in 3nt too. If they'd rebid 3♦ - then I'd get excited.

[paulg]

In order to make 6NT you need the diamonds to play for 5 tricks, which is about 45% chance.

 

So missing the slam is the right thing to do in the long run - I'd probably be in 4NT too.

 

Paul

[Fluffy]

I can see 2 possible auctions:

 

1♦-1♠

2♦-3♣

3♥-4NT

pass

 

 

And

 

1♦-1♠

2♦-2♥

3♥-4♣

4♦-4♠

4NT-5♦

6♦-6♥

[awm]

A lot of inexperienced players have a tendency to get all excited when they hold a strong hand (say 16+ points) opposite an opening, and refuse to stop short of slam. So on a pair of hands like these, you have to expect that a lot of the field is going to be in slam because south will simply not stop bidding until you get there.

 

This general approach (going berserk with 16+ points opposite an opening) is not always best, and you've done well to avoid it here. With the misfit hands, you're not really odds-on for slam, and you judged correctly to stay out. Unfortunately, the lie of the cards was lucky for the slam bidders... and there will be a lot of them, so you get a bad score. But in the long run you will tend to outscore the people who automatically bid slam on hands like these... so good bidding. Unfortunately it's possible to bid well, avoid a bad contract, and still get a poor result when the bad contract comes home. This is why good players (sometimes) lose at bridge. :)

[barmar]

I agree with all the people who said this is not a SJS hand. You should avoid SJS with a two-suiter, unless the second suit is support for opener. The jump takes up too much room, you may not be able to show your second suit below the 4 level. And with a hand like this, you do want to show all your assets -- you want to be able to explore for a ♣ slam. So bid slowly, remembering that new suits by an unpassed responder are always forcing. You would be very happy to hear the auction go 1♦-1♠-2♣ or 1♦-1♠-2♦-3♣-4♣.

 

The theory behind Soloway SJS is that the denomination is usually set by opener's or responder's second bid. Note that in the 2nd auction above, ♣ agreement doesn't show up until the third round. After a SJS, opener should not bid a second suit unless it's a 5-card suit, since he shouldn't expect responder to have 4 of them.

[cherdano]

I think I am one of these inexperienced players Adam is alluding to :D :D

 

My auction would start the same as Mike's: 1♦-1♠-2♦-3♣-3NT. However, I would not give up with responder's hand yet. Yes, it is a misfit, but I still have a very nice looking 18-count, and partner's range for 1♦-2♦ is still a bit wide-ranging. I would give it one further push with 4♥, patterning out, fully expecting to play in 4Nt.

 

The auction would then continue (I hope) 4♥-5♥-6♥.

 

Arend

[barmar]

I'm not sure I'd want to play in slam on a Moysian and misfits in all the side suits. You need to ruff at least one ♦, and the only transportation back to your hand afterward is to ruff a black card, shortening yourself.

[keylime]

Lotta points but no fit.

 

1♦-1♠

2♦-3♣

3NT-4NT

 

At this point, my fragments aren't looking that good - would need pard to have the right cards to make six NT. Furthermore I'm not going to put my pard under the gun. Swish.

[Chamaco]

Lotta points but no fit.

 

1♦-1♠

2♦-3♣

3NT-4NT

 

At this point, my fragments aren't looking that good - would need pard to have the right cards to make six NT. Furthermore I'm not going to put my pard under the gun. Swish.

I like this auction.

 

BTW, this auction seems like a good plug for Bourke Relay.

[joker_gib]

Lotta points but no fit.

 

1♦-1♠

2♦-3♣

3NT-4NT

 

At this point, my fragments aren't looking that good - would need pard to have the right cards to make six NT. Furthermore I'm not going to put my pard under the gun. Swish.

I like this auction.

Yes :rolleyes:

 

Alain

[Robert]

Hello ArcLight

 

You made several excellent points. Sometimes the right decision ends up going wrong in bridge. Avoiding a poor slam 'sometimes' gets you a poor result.

 

Making the right bid does produce good results over the long term.

 

Jump shifting on misfitting two suiters is not a good idea.

 

Your handling of a first time partner was very good.

 

Do not rebid that spade suit. A good partner will show support, 'if' it is right(with three card support 'later in the auction' after not making a direct raise)

 

There was no reasonable 'blame' to accept for, you did nothing wrong. All of your decisions were correct.

 

Well done.

 

Regards,

Robert

[Gerben42]

Agree with Keylime's auction. Even if playing SJS (don't!) this hand does not qualify for that. Be happy to have missed slam, and feel unlucky that it was making.

[keylime]

Bourke indeed Chamaco. Very nice concept.

[Robert]

Hello everyone

 

Anyone want to tell the newby what a 'Bourke Relay' is?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Regards,

Robert

[Chamaco]

Hello everyone

 

Anyone want to tell the newby what a 'Bourke Relay' is?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Regards,

Robert

Bourke relay is a treatment quite similar to "fourth suit forcing" but is indeed a "third suit forcing" when opener rebids his suit.

 

The cheapest third suit is artificial and game force

 

So, in auctions like:

 

1♣:1♦:2♣:2♥

1♣:1♥♠:2♣:2♦

1♦:1♥♠:2♦:2 oM

 

the 3rd suit is always artificial and forcing game.

This has quite a few benefits:

1- strong responder can investigate game from a lower level

2- weak and invitational hands can be teated very efficiently

 

 

Usually Bourke Relay is used for sequences after 1m opening, but a similar approach can be adopted in many situations.

 

There is however 1 awkward auction:

 

1♦:1♠:2♦:2♥

 

In this case, if opener had 5+ diamonds and 4+ hearts but could not show hearts without reversing, he does not know whether responder might have a heart fit (and responder, as well, if he is GF with 5S and 4H, ignores whether responder has a heart fit).

 

This shortcoming can be solved in systems where 1D opening is NEVER balanced (e.g. like Real diamond precision with weak NT or in 5 card major systems where weak NT goes via a short club and 1D is always unbalanced):

 

in those cases, opener shall open 1D and rebid 1NT artificial (1D opener can't be balanced) when he has hearts, so, when he indeed bids 1♦:1♠:2♦, he denies 4 hearts and the 2♥ can be afely used as Bourke Relay without any confusion.

 

=====================

 

Also, it is important to choose a compatible meaning of the direct jumpshifts by responder to 1m opener.

After some posts by Gerben, I have adopted (using Real Damond precision):

 

- 1D:2M = constructive jumpshift (weaker than invitational, but game still in the picture if fit is there)

- 1D:1M:2D:2M = invitational, nonforicng

- 1D:1M:2D:3M= slammish with selfsufficient major

- when opener rebids 1NT, use xyz Checkback or whatever

[mikeh]

1♦   1♠

2♦   3♣

3♥   3♠

3N   4N

 

Seems right to me: as north, I would prefer partner as declarer in 3N hence my shape showing 3♥ bid, but it is close and I would not object to an immediate 3N instead.

 

As South, bidding over 3N is debatable: it is close, because the hands screams misfit, and the suit quality sucks. However, I think that I would usually squeak out 4N: passing is too big a position. Forcing to slam is a common weak(er) player error on these hands, but passing 3N is quite a view as well. If slamming or passing were the only choices, it isn't close: pass wins by a country mile. But there is a middle ground: 4N. This hand is worth about 3.510000009 NT over 3N, by my patented count method, so I round it up <_<

 

However, if you are a really light opening bidder, then pass of 3N becomes the choice.

 

I agree entirely with the comments against a strong jump shift. We saw such jump shifts in the early days of bridge, when bidding methods were rudimentary and it was critical to establish a force. We don't need such crude methods now, with complex, non-fitting hands.