Mission impossible

[luis]

1st hand)

 

North:

Ax

T652

J

AKJ652

 

South:

Kxxx

J

Axxx

Qxxx

 

Nobody vul, South dealer, if south passes West opens 1NT (!) How do you bid these hands?

 

Curious note: My mother Ana playing with her pd opened the south hand playing Moscito and got to 6 clubs redoubled (!!) +1830 take this!!!

[flytoox]

I'd be happy to reach 3N or 5c, let alone 6c:)

[inquiry]

North:

Ax

T652

J

AKJ652

 

South:

Kxxx

J

Axxx

Qxxx

 

This is a great hand for relay systems. But if south passed or west dealt it is problematic for everyone.

 

Was 1NT strong or weak? Over 1NT, I like Woolsey where DBL over 1NT shows 4M and longer minor, and using this you have a chance to bid the game and very outside chance to bid slam. On a "good day", the bidding might be (note a helpful double in here by the opponents with forcing pass implications and redoubles would help you)....

 

Pass (1NT) DBL (Pass)

2D (Pass) 2H (Pass)

2NT (Pass) 3H (Pass)

? (Pass)

 

2D = show major

2S = Pass/Correct showing spades and support both minors

2NT = asking bid

3H = maximum hand, clubs

 

Over 3H's. responder can cue-bid 3S, or try his hand at 3NT. Over 3NT, north probably passes, over 3S, north will cue-bid 4D, south 4H, north 4S, now slam is at least in the picture, although either partner my develop cold feet and signoff in clubs.

 

Note the 2NT after 1N-X-P-2D-P-2M-P-2NT.... is the same as after 1N-X-P-2NT, with 3C = min clubs, 3D = min diamonds, 3H = max Clubs, and 3S = max and Spades

 

Still a very difficult hand to bid. Next, how are you going to get them to double you in 6C's., and how are you ever going to be sure enough to redouble without relay system. :-) And finally, are how are you going to make this on a trump opening lead (or course, opener leader good chance to be void in clubs), and second trump when you lose a heart. 6C in hand, 2S, 1D, and two heart ruffs is 11, and without the Club T9, dummy looks short of entries for dummy reversal (4 trumps, 2S, 2S ruff, 1D, 3D ruffs).

 

Ben

[luis]

West has every single missing spot and an natural 15-17 NT opening.

That's why he will double 6c without hesitation (sQJ, h AKQ, dKQ just too many spots) The heart lead is almost automatic with AKQ and you can always make 6 on a heart lead and any continuation.

She redoubled because if 6c was down 1 200 would be the same as 100 and if 6cxx makes they will be devastated. Right she was.

[Codo]

Hi all,

 

please bid those slams against me, I would like to take the automatic + 200 :)

You look at 17 HCPs including AKQ of H. They bid 6 Club.

What do you lead? Surely a club and when you are in again another club. This will only loose to a heart lead, if they can create a quick discard on spades and should be the only choosen led.

 

For the bidding: Against a strong NT I simply play DONT. So I would X 1 NT with the North hand. I think, that East has 5 hearts and will bid them, so I guess the bidding will be something like:

West North East South

pass

1 NT X 2 Heart X (t.o)

pass 3 Club all pass?!

 

all pass. Okay, no success, but better then 6C XX -1 :-))

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[the hog]

The heart lead is almost automatic with AKQ and you can always make 6 on a heart lead and any continuation.

 

I totally agree with Roland. The H lead is definitely NOT automatic. Holding the hand you described, the only likely legitimate way declarer can come to 12 tricks is by ruffing; a trump lead is a standout. I'd like to be playing those opps!

[sartaj1]

last week, i played in a national event with michael courtney and he had an interesting idea about our system which will solve the current problem.

 

P - (1NT) - 2C(*) - (P)

2NT !

*2C = aspro, hearts and another suit

! 2NT by advancer = splinter in hearts and good hand.

 

The method is designed for precisely this hand type.

Being a passed hand makes it easier for us to make this call as we have a maximum . FOr an unpassed hand, the requirements would be a lot stricter.

 

To answer the question as to why 2NT should not be natural (if we are unpassed hand) , the idea is that all such hands would go via 2D forcing relay.

[rtewari]

I see a lot of people here dying to play against the slam bidders...

 

What is the full hand of 1NT opener? If he has only 3 diamonds and AKQ of hearts, then even a trump lead will not defeat the slam. It also depends a lot on the diamond pips in the south hand - say A9xx and 1NT opener has KQTx , then also it will be possible to make the slam - it may be just a question of judging the layout. Then, I guess we may not feel too happy playing such opponents!!

[Free]

Maybe this is a time to throw away the H-suit and bid 4C, which has a pre-emptive touch. My partner won't hesitate and bid 5C, since he has less than 8 losers (because he has 4Cs and a stiff) and I have promised 6 (yes, I have only 5), together about 12-13 which means 5-level, very maybe 6-level (11-12 losers normally). And because of the strong 1NT opening, I don't think I'd try for slam...

[luis]

The full hand is:

 

Nobody vul.

South dealer.

 

A2

T652

J

AKJ652

 

QJ64 T93

AKQ3 9874

KQ3 T8754

74 T

K875

J

A962

Q983

 

At my table west opened a strong 1NT and played there for down 4. Undoubled.

[rtewari]

As you can see, the hand makes even on a trump lead - just isolate the diamond threat and there is an automatic double squeeze. B)

 

The hand becomes a little more interesting if West hand is QJ6 , AKQ3 , KQT3 , 74 (diamond T in east hand swapped with spade 4). Even this will make on a trump lead - try it out !!!

[Codo]

Brilliant analyszes and brilliant play B)

But I think, I would still like to play opps, who bid to a small slam against a strong NT which needs the given hands to make. Maybe someone can find out the percentages, but I guess, they are not in favour to bid the slam. To reach 5 club would be absolute sufficent to reach a top result, so where is the need to bid 6?

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[the hog]

I think from the gist of Luis' postings that it was Imps, Roland, and probably a long team match. Otherwise the xx makes no sense at all.

[EricK]

The full hand is:

 

Nobody vul.

South dealer.

 

A2

T652

J

AKJ652

 

QJ64 T93

AKQ3 9874

KQ3 T8754

74 T

K875

J

A962

Q983

 

At my table west opened a strong 1NT and played there for down 4. Undoubled.

 

 

May I start a subthread here?

 

Who would pass the East hand after 1NT (P)?

 

It seems automatic (to me) to try and rescue with 2C. Here it mightn't be good because NS have a game, but how often (in general) do they bid games against a strong NT?

 

Eric

[rtewari]

Maybe someone can find out the percentages, but I guess, they are not in favour to bid the slam.

 

The hand always makes if 1NT opener has AKQ of hearts (either it will come down in 3 cards or there will be a double squeeze with either spade or diamond as the pivot suit - you may have to guess which).

 

And now some percentages. I just ran a simulation with following assumptions

 

1. 1NT hand should have 15-17 HCP

2. 2+ cards in each suit

3. Max 6 diamonds , 5 hearts/spades

4. If 5 spades then no side 4 suit

5. If 5 hearts than no 4 diamonds (may have 4 spades + 5 hearts 4-5-2-2 rebid problems)

6. No 5 diamonds + 4 spades

 

There were total of 48388 combinations and not surprisingly 35028 out of these had AKQ of hearts (2700 were 5 hearts + 4 spades if you wish to ignore them) and the slam looks very good.

 

Frankly, rather than scoffing at opponents who manage to bid a slam on these hands, I should really be admiring their ability to reach this slam!!

[luis]

The Moscito pair bid as follows:

 

West North East South

2d(1)

Dbl 2N(2) Pass 3c(3)

Pass 3d(4) Pass 3s(5)

Pass 4h(6) Pass 4n(7)

Pass 6c Pass Pass

Dbl Rdbl Pass Pass

Pass

 

(1): 10-14 Three suited hand with 4/5 clubs

(2): Positive INV+ asking bid

(3): Some 4441 (no void)

(4): Relay

(5): 4=1=4=4

(6): Asking for controls hearts excluded

(7): 3

 

Knowing that your pd is 10-14 HCP 4-1-4-4 with 3 controls I think that both the 6c bid and the redouble by north are very reasonable.

[Codo]

Hi Rajeshwar, hi Luis,

 

okay, now I got it. I still want to play these opps:

I will learn much more about the game, even while loosing 0-25.... B)

 

I like the simulation you made. Maybe there is just one case, you did not consider: North bid the slam without knowing about the jack of Hearts. Pd may have the Queen of spade or diamond instead.

 

But without the single jack, chances shood be much worse then with it, am I right?

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[the hog]

What happened to the 1N opening which we were originally asked about? It appears that South opened 2D now!

If the auction went as Luis described in his most recent post, why did West X? West would have had the same information as the relay asker.

 

Following from Ben's next post - yes, Luis did say that there was a 2D opening. I am still surprised at the X and I am even still more surprised at the lead, given the fact that Sth's shape is known.

[inquiry]

What happened to the 1N opening which we were originally asked about? It appears that West opened 2D now!

If the auction went as Luis described in his most recent post, why did West X? West would have had the same information as the relay asker.

 

To be fair to Luis, the original post was to illustrate how to bid the slam if you passed with the south hand. The point being if you passed THEN west would open 1NT. I think this is consistent... with the original post. I am curious too, however, to see how people appoach the north hand if South had passed.

 

Ben

[rtewari]

I like the simulation you made. Maybe there is just one case, you did not consider: North bid the slam without knowing about the jack of Hearts. Pd may have the Queen of spade or diamond instead.

 

But without the single jack, chances shood be much worse then with it, am I right?

 

 

Hi Codo,

 

I ran the simulation with the known NS hands. Without the Heart Jack the chances will be less but then you cannot find each and every spot card (e.g. if South has AT98 then chances shoot up dramatically - even just ATxx of diamonds or KTxx of spades makes it much better or if 1NT opener has 5 hearts it does not matter who has the heart jack).

 

I am sure you also must have sometime or the other landed up in much worse contracts than these but none would have really considered you as easy meat. I was only disagreeing with your comments that a pair who reaches a slam on these hands is weak.

 

Regards

[Codo]

Hi Rajeshwar,

 

thanks for your advice. But I saw the north player in action and know that she is at least three classes better then me. So, if my comments did sound like you understood them, my deepest apologisze to Luis and Ana. I surely did not want to critisze her.

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

 

P.S. About the hand: At the table, where they bid the slam, the declarer did not know about the 15-17 NT to his left.

So, after a trump lead, a double squeeze is the only chance and I am sure, that South would have excecute it. But as dummies and declarers hands are, the chances are reduced to:

4 +hearts left and 4+ diamonds on the right.

 

Or did I miss something again?

[rtewari]

Hi Roland,

 

Was the table you were watching the same as whose bidding sequence Luis has posted somewhere in this thread? In that sequence, the West (1NT 15-17 hand) has taken 2 bids - X of 2D (probably meant as a T/O of clubs or balanced 15+ as some play against multi kind of bids) and also a X of the final contract. One is likely to place LHO with this kind of hand only (once a doubleton club is also known)

 

This hand has multiple possibilities.

1. LHO has heart stopper AKQ(+) and RHO has diamond stopper Txxxx(+)

2. LHO has heart stopper AKQ(+) or any five hearts and RHO has spade stopper 4+ cards

3. LHO has any five hearts in which case diamond stopper will automatically be with RHO

4. LHO has AKQ of heart in which case hearts get setup

5. LHO has KQT of diamonds in which case diamonds get setup.

6. LHO has 2-2-6-3 or 2-3-5-3 shape in which case RHO comes under heart-spade squeeze. This is likely only if the first X was meant to be a strong balanced hand.

7. LHO has 5-3-3-2 (5 spades) any hand in which case RHO comes under an entry shifting squeeze.

 

Of course, one will need to guess a bit on what line to play. The best would be to play for H stopper on left and D stop on right. Concede a heart and on trump return play a spade to king. If you get a strong feel that RHO has 4 spades then you can change tack and play for diamond as the pivot suit instead of spade as the pivot. And there is the additional chance that the heart T or diamond 9 has gets setup on the way. In the simulation, this was succeeding about 65% of the times.

 

Regards