Should we be penalized?

[G_R__E_G]

Playing in ACBL sanctioned club game, I'm wondering what the proper ruling is on this and if you could tell me the exact rule number that applies. I'm dealt something like this: ♠Jxxx ♥KJ9xx ♦x ♣Jxx. My partner is dealer and opens 1♣, RHO passes and I respond 1♥. LHO then overcalls 2♦ and partner doubles. I alert, and when ops ask I explain that it's a support double and that it should show three card support for my hearts. I bid 2♥ and then partner bids 3♣. She plays with several partners and I'm the only one she plays support doubles with so I'm guessing she's made a mistake. I pass the 3♣ bid as I figure it's the right thing to do, even though I'm now quite certain that we have a spade fit.

 

A diamond is led and I table the dummy. LHO wins the ♦A and then plays the ♥A which my partner trumps! It turns out that my LHO had 4 hearts and figured she could win her ace and then give partner a ruff since she thought she had a full count of the hearts. She was rather upset and called the director who had a look and said to call him back at the end of the hand. When it was all over she made her bid but the director gave us a two trick penalty. Is this the correct ruling?

 

PS As it turns out partner's hand was 4=0=3=6. Playing support doubles how would you bid her hand after the 2♦ overcall?

[inquiry]

Was support doubles marked on your convention card? I assume so. Your alert was proper in that case. Your partner is NOT suppose to tell them that she misbid. If you had to guess what was going on, your opponents had to guess as well.

 

Ben

[G_R__E_G]

Was support doubles marked on your convention card? I assume so. Your alert was proper in that case. Your partner is NOT suppose to tell them that she misbid. If you had to guess what was going on, your opponents had to guess as well.

 

Ben

 

Your assumption is correct, it is on our card. Here's the thing though, she hadn't forgotten that it was a support double. She was hoping I'd come back with 2♠ and if I didn't she was prepared to rebid her clubs, obviously running the risk that I'd get carried away on our "wonderful" heart fit.

[Finch]

This is slightly tricky. The TD has to decide which of two interpretations of your agreements is correct:

 

i) You play support doubles, you both know you play support doubles, your partner decided to make a support double on a void for her own obscure reasons. You decided to play her to have forgotten for your own, totally unjustified, obscure reasons. Your partner has psyched. No penalty.

 

ii) Your card says support doubles, but you don't really play them. You have bid as if you don't play them (you assumed your partner had forgotten with no real evidence, and bid as if you didn't play them). Your partner has bid as if you don't play them (doubling with a void). Now you have a concealed partnership understanding, and the opponents are right to feel damaged.

 

Whether a two trick penalty is correct depends on the entire hand, so I can't comment, but the score would be adjusted to whatever result is most likely had they been given a correct explanation of your agreements.

 

----------------------

 

I understand from your comments that (i) is the case. That is what Ben (Inquiry) has said.

 

But look at it from the TD's point of view: you bid as if you weren't playing support doubles (passing 3C holding five hearts), and your partner bid as if you weren't playing them. So it does look from both sides of the table as if you aren't really playing them and your card & alert were misinformation.

[Finch]

PS As it turns out partner's hand was 4=0=3=6. Playing support doubles how would you bid her hand after the 2♦ overcall?

Depending on the strength of her hand, and the relative quality of the black suits, by calling one of

i) pass

ii) 2S

iii) 3C

[mike777]

This is slightly tricky.  The TD has to decide which of two interpretations of your agreements is correct:

 

i) You play support doubles, you both know you play support doubles, your partner decided to make a support double on a void for her own obscure reasons.  You decided to play her to have forgotten for your own, totally unjustified, obscure reasons. Your partner has psyched. No penalty.

 

ii) Your card says support doubles, but you don't really play them. You have bid as if you don't play them (you assumed your partner had forgotten with no real evidence, and bid as if you didn't play them). Your partner has bid as if you don't play them (doubling with a void).  Now you have a concealed partnership understanding, and the opponents are right to feel damaged.

 

Whether a two trick penalty is correct depends on the entire hand, so I can't comment, but the score would be adjusted to whatever result is most likely had they been given a correct explanation of your agreements.

 

----------------------

 

I understand from your comments that (i) is the case. That is what Ben (Inquiry) has said.

 

But look at it from the TD's point of view: you bid as if you weren't playing support doubles (passing 3C holding five hearts), and your partner bid as if you weren't playing them. So it does look from both sides of the table as if you aren't really playing them and your card & alert were misinformation.

Agree strongly with Frances's point 2 here.

 

Your cc says you play them, both of you agree you play them and did not forget but you seem not to play them at the table. There is no evidence that 3 clubs says partner has forgotten, 3 clubs can be a very normal rebid after a support double.

 

Whatever x means it is clear you guys are not playing some standard version of support doubles. In fact my best guess is both of you do not know the convention which includes all the follow up bids. Keep in mind at the table the Director has to make a decision very fast to keep the game flowing, they do not have 20 minutes to think and think.

[pclayton]

You thought you played them and your CC says that you do? Seems to be evidence of an agreement that your pard forgot. There's definitely UI with your pard's lack of alert.

 

I'd adjust to 2♥ down (whatever). I'm too lazy to look up the Law #.

 

I've never heard of a 2 trick penalty in such a case. It seems rather arbitrary.

[Fluffy]

You had more info than the opponents, because you knew she often doesn't play support doubles.

 

The question is then if your pas to 3♣ makes it clear that you though she had made a mistake. I believe you should had better stated after all passed that in your opinion, she had made a mistake.

 

The fact it was written on your card surelly helps your case. But itdoesn't mean you don't have to explaain the rest of your agreements not written (or in this case, your knowdledge of her possible missbid).

 

Still I might consider the pass to 3♣ enough explanation and let it go. I jsut don't know.

[han]

We should look at your partner's hand and see if it was reasonable for him/her to pass 2H. If this was a logical alternative than the score should be changed. Your partner received UI when you alerted the double.

 

(This is all assuming that it is your agreement to play support doubles, which seems to be the case)

[keylime]

I agree with Phil - 2H down 1 or 2 at the very least.

 

To be blunt, I think there needs to be a greater emphasis on knowing your agreements.

[pigpenz]

yes there was UI, its sort of like playing jacoby transfers but your partner forgets and bids 2♦ holding diamonds not hearts and then corrects to 3♦ and you (the nt opener) pass holding four hearts in their hand. you are supposed to bid just like partner is making a slam try.

 

Active Ethics wise you are supposed to take your lumps :D

[G_R__E_G]

I fully agree that I'd rather take my lumps once in a while than be unethical. That is why I'd passed the 3♣ bid. By our agreement my 2♥ bid showed a minimum hand with 5 hearts. It was more from the vibe that I was picking up from her that I thought she misbid, her return to her suit by our agreements showed an invitational hand with a strong preference for her suit. As I said, I suspected that she'd misbid, but ignoring that fact, passing 3♣ with my hand is not unreasonable. My LHO had made a vulnerable overcall on the two level so it would be quite possible that partner had xxx in hearts with all of the missing heart honours sitting over mine.

 

I guess I got this off topic by mentioning my feelings that she'd possibly misbid, because that didn't really effect my choices in the bidding. Had I used what I thought was UI I probably would have bid 3♠ after her 3♣.

 

Maybe I should start again - Is it illegal to psyche a support double if both partners bid as per their agreements after that? Does the fact that I've told the opponents wrong information about my partner's hand merit a penalty since it caused them to defend poorly? Without changing the auction, does her intentions of the double (ie whether it's a psyche or mistake) change the ruling?

[mike777]

My understanding is psyche is ok but mistakes may or may not result in a penalty.

Of course if partner makes the same type of psyche 2 or 3 times in a 12 month period it may be construed as an implied agreement and not a psyche.

 

To take an extreme example, say you play a complicated relay system and hand after hand you guys make mistakes in understanding your bidding system. This can cause havoc in a game. I am unsure of the exact rule but my point is if you keep misplaying your system or a convention there may be a penalty involved.

[Finch]

It's perfectly legal to pysche a support double.

 

The difficulty you have on this particular hand is convincing the TD that it was a psyche (or indeed a misbid) and not that your real partnership agreement is different to what's on the card.

 

By the way, I wouldn't adjust to 2H minus anything. I don't think it's a logical alternative to pass 2H on those cards.

[Robert]

Hello G r e g

 

I tend to bend over backwards to bid as if partner has all of their bids.

 

What would a 3C bid mean after a support double, if your partner was showing 3 card support? My auction would promise extra values, a long club suit "plus" 3 card heart support.

 

If you want to add more excitement, you can use Good/Bad 2NT. Direct bids at the 3 level show extra values, while 2NT forcing 3C and converting to your suit show long suits 'without' extra values.

 

You do not have to worry about problems with playing support doubles. All you have to do is to 'remember' that you play Good/Bad 2NT.

 

I would be very nervous about passing 3Cs. If partner was showing extra values along with the 3 card heart support, she did not forget and your guess is a bit insulting to partner.

 

Are you sure that there was no UI from a startled look, a sudden head jerk or a rolling of her eyes when you alerted that caused you to guess that she forgot? Did she make a normal 'in tempo' bid of 3Cs?

 

What happens when you play Jacoby and hear 1NT-2D-2H-3Ds? On another forum the TD claimed that almost everyone played that as strong(some play it as a slam try) and natural, however, in 5 out of 6 times when he was called to the table 'someone had forgotten and their partner fielded nicely by 'passing' the 'strong forcing' 3D bid.

 

Partner managed to pass 3Ds(guessing that it was natural!) when the auction clearly showed hearts and diamonds plus added values. Apparently people forget, however, their body language just happens to 'clue' partner in and they pass a fairly common type 'forcing' bid.

 

I play a lot of conventions and agreements. My style is to 'trust partner.' If partner forgets, I am not going to 'remember' the 'two way' style of bidding a suit either 'naturally' or according to our agreements.

 

Just my view of things. No one can question my flight plan, I follow a 'crash and burn' style by trusting my partner to have their bid.

 

I have several times commented to partner(afterwards) that I would have guessed that they had forgotten some agreement when we had both remembered. The auction was 'funny', however, I alerted his conventional bid and followed up just like he had his bid. We landed on our feet and the convention had worked!

 

It is a compliment to partner when you suspect that they have forgotten, however, you trust them to have remembered. If you do guess wrong, it is only because you showed trust in your partners bidding. That is not a bad reputation to have.

 

Regards,

Robert

[muggle]

Speaking for myself, I'd take 3♣ as a game try in ♥s, and never assume partner 'forgot'. I'd agonize a bit over bidding 3♥ or 4♥, and just bid 3♥. Take my lumps, whatever is deserved. Bridge is a game of mistakes. Maybe your pard will try to "save" by bidding 4♣, but your partner should really pass 3♥, taking you for a 6+ bagger, and a misfit, and not use UI of your alert.

 

And your opponents wouldn't need to get the TD or feel damaged. Everyone would have a good laugh when dummy comes down, and what happens, happens.

 

A disasterous misunderstanding is also, I find, the best way of remembering a convention. Your partner will either never forget support dbls again, or you'll just agree to not play them in the future.

[muggle]

And on more thought. I'm not a TD, but I think this situation falls under the rule of coincidence, where you are not allowed to field partner's pyches by making an unusual call which is inconsistant with your hand, system and normal bridge logic.