What is partner asking now?

[Echognome]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sa954h6dqjt864ckq]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

As dealer you open 1♦ and partner bids 1♥. You bid 1♠ playing Walsh style bidding so you have shown an ubalanced hand. Partner bids 2♣ as fourth suit forcing (to game by agreement), so you bid 2♦ to show your 6th diamond. Partner now bids 2NT. What do you have left to add?

 

1♦ - 1♥

1♠ - 2♣

2♦ - 2NT

?

[Gerben42]

The one thing I didn't tell yet is my strength: My hand is minimum so I sign off in 3NT.

Partner is trying for slam, but not with me please :P

[Mr. Dodgy]

I have a club control

[MickyB]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sa954h6dqjt864ckq]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

As dealer you open 1♦ and partner bids 1♥. You bid 1♠ playing Walsh style bidding so you have shown an ubalanced hand. Partner bids 2♣ as fourth suit forcing (to game by agreement), so you bid 2♦ to show your 6th diamond.

What would your third bid be with 4153/4252 and no club stop?

[Finch]

What would your third bid be with 4153/4252 and no club stop?

Playing a style where 1D-1H-1S promises an unbalanced hand (i.e. 5 diamonds and 4 spade):

 

i) With a 4252 2H is clear: I would have raised 1H to 2H with many 4351s so I won't usually have more than 2 hearts (with a hand too good for 2H last time and 4351 I bid 3H over 2C).

 

ii) With a 4153 without a club stop personally I would often give simple preference to 2H as well. Playing 2C as game forcing an alternative is to raise to 3C if you play that as "fifth suit forcing".

 

On the sample hand I raise 2NT to 3NT. I can't see anything else remotely attractive. It looks as though partner was angling for some heart support or for extra help in clubs and we have the latter.

[mr1303]

Typically, I play this as either 12-14 ish or 18-19. A jump to 3NT now would show 15-17 ish. Quite possibly unbalanced as well. The idea being that if I now bid 3NT, partner may have a hand that would bid 4NT now showing an 18-19 hand.

 

Not sure if you play this the same way, but if 2C is 100% GF, then I don't see why not.

[whereagles]

The one thing I didn't tell yet is my strength: My hand is minimum so I sign off in 3NT.

Partner is trying for slam, but not with me please :P

Agree. Narrowing your hand is the most important thing right at this stage in the auction. So 3NT or 3D (if you agreed 3D shows a min) are correct bids. Other bids that don't limit the hand are technical errors.

[Fluffy]

You haven't shown yet the 6♦ I think, but anyway that suit rates for the 5.5 lenght you have shown.

 

Left is to bid some help in ♣s, either with 3♣ or 3NT, ,I would probably bid 3NT

[Guest Jlall]

I don't agree that you've shown 6 diamonds, but I'd bid 3N here.

[Al_U_Card]

3NT fer sure before showing the C control. If he makes a move you are minimum and the premature C bid might tend to show not just a control but more than a minimum. Brakes were made to be applied at the right time. You can always take your foot off if the light turns green.... <_<

[mike777]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sa954h6dqjt864ckq]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

As dealer you open 1♦ and partner bids 1♥. You bid 1♠ playing Walsh style bidding so you have shown an ubalanced hand. Partner bids 2♣ as fourth suit forcing (to game by agreement), so you bid 2♦ to show your 6th diamond. Partner now bids 2NT. What do you have left to add?

 

1♦ - 1♥

1♠ - 2♣

2♦ - 2NT

?

I strongly disagree that 1s over 1h shows an unbalanced hand in "Walsh style". I see this confusion often...Only after 1d does it promise an unbalanced hand in "Walsh"

 

Again disagree 2d promises 6 diamonds also.

 

Any event I bid 3nt I guess if in your style I have shown all of the above.

[Finch]

Whether or not 2D shows a 6th diamond depends on what your 1S rebid showed.

If you play a 1S rebid as promising an unbalanced hand (whatever you call the method), then the 1S rebid promised five diamonds*. In that case, bidding 2D over 2C shows a 6th diamond as you've already promised five.

 

If you play a different method where rebidding 1S could be a 4243 or 4342 or even 4333 with better diamonds than clubs, then rebidding 2D shows a 5th card only (and with a 4162 shape we could bid 3D over 2NT).

 

 

*(or possibly a 4144 depending on whether you open 1C or 1D with that)

[Echognome]

Whether you agree this is "Walsh" style or not, it was certainly the agreement we were playing. Any reason why we shouldn't play 1m rebid 1M as showing an unbalanced hand? For the record, the only hand that I might have that wouldn't have shown 5♦ by rebidding 1♠ is a 4-1-4-4 as our agreements are to open 1♦ with 4-4 in the minors and 1♣ with 3-3 in the minors.

[cherdano]

Sorry, I would like to get the terminology confusion out of the way. In my understanding, "Walsh" is only aobut bypassing 4/5 diamonds by responder in favor of a 4-card major after 1♣ opening, and consequently a 1M rebid by opener promising an unbalanced hand. It does, in my understanding, say nothing about bidding after a 1♦ opening. Is this standard or am I wrong.

 

Of course this doesn't affect the discussion of this hand, as Matt's agreement was clear.

 

Arend

[Trpltrbl]

I bid 3NT, I have minimum hand.

If pd now goes on in slamtry for ♦ I will be helpfull.

 

GBB :lol:

[MickyB]

Whether or not 2D shows a 6th diamond depends on what your 1S rebid showed.

If you play a 1S rebid as promising an unbalanced hand (whatever you call the method), then the 1S rebid promised five diamonds*. In that case, bidding 2D over 2C shows a 6th diamond as you've already promised five.

I disagree that 1♠ showing 5♦ implies that 2♦ shows a 6th. You need to have a bid to make when you have no extra shape and no stop in the 4th suit - you've picked 2♥ for this, which is fine, but I don't think that it is obviously inferior to use 2♦ instead, particularly when it is the cheapest bid.

 

Obviously the situation is in no way analogous, but it reminds me of auctions like 1♥:2♦, 2♥. Many Acol players would expect that to show a 6th heart when playing 5 card majors - why else would you bid them again?

[Finch]

I agree you need a 'default' bid to make over 4th suit when you already have exactly what you've shown.

 

The aim when answering a question from partner is to give partner as much extra information as cheaply as possible. Given that, taking 4252 as a specific example, I disagree that it is "not obviously inferior" to make the default bid 2D, given certain assumptions.

 

Those assumptions are:

 

- you would rebid 1NT, or possibly raise 1H to 2H, on any balanced hand (4333, 4432, 5332 possibly 4144) without 4-card heart support

- you would raise 1H to 2H on most minimum 4=3=1=5 distributions

 

So when would you bid 2H on the given auction? If you think 2D is the default call on a 4252, then 2D gives partner very little new information, and 2H is a very rare bid indeed. You don't want to make a cheap call a very rare one, it's inefficient. If alternatively you bid 2H on this hand type, then partner is about 80% certain you have exactly this shape.

 

Personally I would also bid 2H holding Kxxx Kx KJxxx Ax because I think telling partner I have Kx in his suit is more important than showing a club stop.

 

If, on the other hand, you would always rebid 1S with a 4351, then perhaps you should save up the 2H bid to show 3-card support or possibly Hx and rebid 2D.

 

If you play 2C as game forcing (which I don't, I think the method is as poor as playing 1C-2D-2S round the table as promising a rebid, but that's another issue), then you can use the raise of the 4th suit to mean something specific. I would use that to show a 4153 with no club stop, which is the "death" hand.

 

By the way, I agree that 2D doesn't absolutely have to have to 6th diamond, but I would bid on the assumption that it did. I would rebid 2D on, say,

 

KQJx

-

KQJ109

5432

 

And I would bid 2H over 2C holding

AKxx

KQ

Jxxxxx

x

 

(but you get the general idea).

[MickyB]

Personally I would also bid 2H holding Kxxx Kx KJxxx Ax because I think telling partner I have Kx in his suit is more important than showing a club stop.

If you are bidding 2♥ on 4153s then you aren't showing pard Kx by bidding 2♥ now! Or can he work it out later, for example when you bid NT?

 

I think this is quite interesting. 6♦4♠ doesn't strike me as being terribly frequent either - I'd expect 2N and 3N to be the most frequent responses, but I guess you have described your hand pretty well by then, and it is often useful to be bidding NT so you don't have to worry later about right-siding it.

 

If you play that 4th suit forcing doesn't promise a rebid, then one advantage of bidding 2♦ on these 4153s is that it will frequently be the right place to play.

[Kalvan14]

1♦-1♥-1♠ does not show an unbalanced hand in Walsh style, but I understand that this is your partnership agreement (I suppose you have the 2♣ checkback over 1N).

After the bidding shown, I would just bid 3N. My hand is quite a minimum, even if it is shapely (but you have already told that), and diamonds are lacking texture

[adhoc3]

3D, showing exactly 4162 or 4261 shape. Guess PD has good D support and he will be very happy to know my shape.

 

We have good chance to play 7D with pd's: Kx Axxx AKx Axx.

[Fluffy]

I agree with MickyB, I never raise to 2♥ with 3 cards, but will often bid 2♥ with a doubleton honnor, that doesn't mean I won't rebid a good 5 card ♦ suit when I have 4252 without ♥ honnor or 4153 when I don't have ♣ stopper.

 

 

I take natural aproaches as well, raising 4SF just means... well I ahve 4 cards there (or even 5!).

[Finch]

3D, showing exactly 4162 or 4261 shape. Guess PD has good D support and he will be very happy to know my shape.

 

We have good chance to play 7D with pd's: Kx Axxx AKx Axx.

 

One of the things partner definitely shouldn't have is good diamond support.

If he had diamonds he would have raised them over 2D. Your sample hand (plus a 13th card) is surely a 3D bid.

[Echognome]

I bid 3NT and that was fine. I forget partner's exact hand, but I know we were missing the A and K of diamonds. I think he was pretty solid everywhere else. I only posted as I wondered whether I should have bid diamonds a 3rd time or whether that would tend to show a better hand (or a different shaped hand).

[mikeh]

I agree with those who say that we have not yet shown the 6th ♦, and the suit quality is such that I like it for slam purposes if partner voluntarily suggests a ♦ slam. However, he had a chance to bid 3♦ over my 2♦. He might still have slam-suitable support, but if he does, and if his hand is strong enough to make a move, he will bid over 3N.

 

I have no extras, altho what I have is pretty good.

 

I hope that partner can bid, for example, 4N over 3N: I would bid 6♦ then.

 

Until that time, 3N gets my vote

 

PS I just read the post about the ♦AK being missing: too bad (for me) if he bids 4N, but that seems unlikely given that my black suit holdings

[Guest Jlall]

FWIW, greco/hampson once avoided a 33 HCP slam against me because over 3N in an auction like this when hampson bid 4N, greco knew with Hx of his 6 card suit hampson would have bid 4 of that suit along the way to 4N. They were off the AK of the long suit and nothing else. Maybe that applies here, partner would bid 4D over 3N with Hx?