Who is to blame?

[xx1943]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=saqh2dak643cak532&s=sk7532hkq10963d2cj]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

Hi all

My partner and I had a big misunderstanding when this hand occurred in a regional ftf-tourney.

 

Our bidding with silent opponents was:

2♣ (game-forcing) 2♦ (waiting)

3♦ (suit)                3♥ (suit)

3 NT (to play)        4♠ (suit)

5♣ (?????)             6 NT :)

 

I would like to hear your opinions:

 

1) Is this a 2♣ opener?

2) What is your opinion about the 3NT bid?

3) Do you like the 4♠ bid?

4) Distribute the blame between North and South

 

Thank you

 

Regards

 

Al

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1) No, but it doesnt need a lot to

make it one, so 2C is ok, if your

partner thinks, it is ok

 

2) Forced, although 4C looks reasonable

as well, but you play MP

 

3) No, I prefer 2H instead of 2D, if this heart

suit does not qualify to be introduced,

which heart suit does?

After 2H, you could have bid 3S, now you

should bid 4H

The main problem ist, you commite the

partnership to the 5 level, but you still have

no clue, which suit is trumps

 

4) tough hand, North made two slight questionable bids

2C / 3NT, South two 2D / 4S, so South gets the most,

maybe 25:50, and 25 to the tough layout.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

1) Is this a 2♣ opener?

No, unless you have some specific way of showing both minors after a 2♣. Using standard methods, you don't have bidding space to show both suits so you must open 1♦.

 

2) What is your opinion about the 3NT bid?

Fine, what else?

 

3) Do you like the 4♠ bid?

Yes but why start with a 2♦ waiting bid? Aren't the hearts good enough for 2♥? If you play 2♥ as an artificial negative, start with 2♠. I know, the spades are nt good enough, but 2♦ is no alternative.

 

4) Distribute the blame between North and South

I think South's 2♦ bid was the worst but if 2♥ would have been artificial negative, I would say 50-50.

[EricK]

You have a massive 2-suiter. If you are not prepared to show it as a 2-suiter after 2♣ (and whatever partner repsonds, this pretty much involves your bidding 3♦ followed by 4♣), then you shouldn't have opened 2♣. I would have bid 1♦ followed by 3♣, but had I opened 2♣, I would have gone through with the description of my hand and bid 4♣.

 

Is it really in your methods that a waiting bid is correct on a strong 6-5 hand? If so, then I think he has to bid 4♠. After all, you could have a 3-1-6-3 hand for your bidding. But really he should be making some effort to describe his hand immediately.

 

I think it's just one of those things. 2♣ auctions crop up very rarely. 2♣ auctions where responder has a strong hand are even rarer. Misfits are notoriously hard to bid even along well-trodden paths.

 

There are a few bids you didn't mention in your questions. I think the 5♣ bid is just an acceptance of the fact that you should have shown them the round before (or thought about the auction before opening 2♣!). And 6♥ is a better shot than 6NT. You may need the ruffing power of the ♥ as entries or to prevent a minor suit loser.

 

Eric

[Gerben42]

Is this a 2♣ opening? Not no but NO.

 

First, the fact that it is a 4-loser hand makes it marginal, but add in both minor suit Qs and I still don't open 2♣.

 

Second, two suiters are not meant to be opened with 2♣. Period. Just call a diamond a diamond please.

 

About the 3NT bid. Misdescribes the hand, something which cannot be helped after misdescribing with 2♣ first. But now partner thinks you're sorta balanced where you are not, better to bid 4♣ or is that a cuebid supporting ♥? See the point about 2♣ and 2-suiters? It doesn't work!

 

I like the 4♠ bid. Probing for slam in either major opposite a strong 2♣ is a good idea.

 

Blame North 90%, South 10% for not figuring out that partner had messed up.

[david_c]

Agree that this is not a 2♣ opening bid.

 

But for similar reasons, South does not have a "waiting" type of hand. If 2♥ over 2♣ would have shown hearts, then that's the call.

[Finch]

I also wouldn't open 2♣. But give me both minor suit queens and you can't afford not to (one of my rules is not to open at the 1-level when I could easily be missing a slam if it is passed out: opposite AQ x AKQxx AKQxx we can make 6C with xxx xxxx x xxxxx in dummy).

 

Another way of wondering if a hand is worth opening 2C is to assume that partner will expect to play in 6NT (or higher) with most balanaced/semi-balanced 12-counts with no real fit. Do you want that here? Give partner KJxx AJxxx Qx Jx and slam is dreadful - and I've given him some minor-suit honours and a useful SJ

 

As for the rest of the auction:

i) what was 2D 'waiting' for? You have a values for a positive and a hand that's going to be difficult to describe.You simply have to show a heart suit in whatever manner you system dictates.

 

ii) 3D/3H fair enough, given the start

 

iii) 3NT. No, I would have bid 4C. If I've opened 2C I have to follow it through.

 

iv) 4S fine

 

v) 5C? What was that supposed to mean? I would have bid 4NT ("please stop bidding partner")

 

vi) 6NT - probably thought 5C agreed spades, or at least was encouraging. I have some sympathy with this call, though personally I prefer 6H. After a 2C opening, a 'balanced' hand and an encourating 5C call I would not stay out of slam. In fact, on the South hand I would not expect to stay out of slam after partner opens 2C unless we found a huge mis-fit or insufficient aces.

[Fluffy]

2 suiters are never to be opened with 2♣, because you get either preempted from opponents and never bid both suits, or it is partner who preempts you.

 

The biggest mistake from this bidding thou is the bid of 4♠. When you have a 56 and wanna ever bid the 5 card suit you have to bid it on first round. I agree with starting with 2♥, then bidding 4♥ would end teh auction reaching a very good contract.

 

5♣ is also wrong ebcause I would take it as a cue bid with ♠ fit, there is no way you will play on the 4th suit introducing it at the 5 level.

 

6NT is not very sensible actually.

[bearmum]

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: MP

♠ AQ ♥ 2 ♦ AK643 ♣ AK532 ♠ K7532 ♥ KQ10963 ♦ 2 ♣ J

Hi all

My partner and I had a big misunderstanding when this hand occurred in a regional ftf-tourney.

 

Our bidding with silent opponents was:

2♣ (game-forcing)  2♦ (waiting)

3♦ (suit)                3♥ (suit)

3 NT (to play)        4♠ (suit)

5♣ (?????)             6 NT :unsure:

 

I would like to hear your opinions:

 

1) Is this a 2♣ opener?

2) What is your opinion about the 3NT bid?

3) Do you like the 4♠ bid?

4) Distribute the blame between North and South

 

Thank you

 

Regards

 

Al

1. NO I don't think this is a 2♣ (game force I presume) bid B) ESPECIALLY if playing 2♦ waiting (rather than step [or control]responses )

 

2. Not relevant because I don't think u should have opened 2♣

I would have opened 1♣ then over pards 1♥ reverse to 2♦ Then P bids 2♠ (showing longer ♥ than ♠ I would expect 6/5 or he would just repeat ♥'s)

 

3. P 's 4♠ bid SAID "I HAVE 6/5 ♥/♠ bid P and sufficient points to override your 3NT

 

4. IMHO the TOTAL blame should go to NORTH for opening 2♣ initally :blink: B) :(

[microcap]

IMO- this is not even close to a 2♣ opener. Too many losers, and I agree with Fluffy that two suiters don't work well with a 2 club opener. ALso, opening with both minors is even worse.

 

IMO, the best rule for 2♣ is the "sick to the stomach" rule. If you open 1 one of a suit, and the hand passes out--- if you get "sick to your stomach", you should have opened 2♣! :unsure: B) :(

[mikeh]

I join the chorus of 1♦ bidders.

 

Not that opening 1♦ is going to work like a charm here: you intend to jump shift to 3♣ and South does not exactly have a clear bid: I would probably give up on ♠ at that point and rebid 3♥: I don't mind a 6-1 fit with that suit.

 

As for the response to 2♣: I realize that I am likely in a (small) minority, but I do not mind the 2♦ waiting bid. I like 2♥ immediate second negative (no A or K), and 2♦ for the great bulk of positive responses. For me, an immediate positive suit response requires that the hand be 'simple': that the positive suit response in itself conveys the bulk of the important information about the hand. Complex hands, and this is certainly one of those, are usually better described later.

 

This is particularly true if you tend not to open 2♣ holding a 2-suiter. The most frequent type of 2♣ opening hand is the very strong notrump. Most pairs have good methods over 2N, and can describe complex hands quite easily. So I like 2♦, hoping for 2N. When partner refuses to cooperate: holding a 1-suiter, responder is still usually better off, in terms of bidding space, than if he has preempted the auction with a suit positive.

[whereagles]

Hi,

 

To open 2♣ or 1♦ is matter of style. Anyone that swears by "yes" or "no" is just being dogmatic. 2♣ is fine. A tad optimistic, perhaps, but fine nonetheless.

 

As for the rest of the bidding, it went fine up to 3NT. Now responder should suspect the misfit lurking and pass or bid 4♥. The 4♠ bid is not by itself an error, but sure is rather optimistic. After 4♠ opener becomes fully aware of the misfit and must bid 4NT, TO PLAY. The 5♣ bid reveals opener didn't realize what is going on. Responder could still try and "correct" by bidding 5♥ now, but oh well...

[Trpltrbl]

I open 1♦, I don't really care for 2 suited minors to open 2♣. Unless 6-5 or better and with extra Q in one of the minors.

After the opening, you have big misfit, but you can't blame South for trying, especially after the 3NT reply.

So, I would blame North 99% and the dealer 1% for dealing such hands <_<

 

GBB ;)

[Kalvan14]

It is not a 2♣ bid: the wrong opening is messing up all the auction and losing 1 bidding level. This said, 2♦ (waiting) is a very strange bid: I would expect that you should be able to show a 6-carder with 2 major honors.

 

Most of the blame, in any case, is with the opener (besides 2♣, the 3N rebid is horrible). Still South has made 2 bad bids: 2♦ and 6N.

I would apportion the blame 65% to N and 35% to S

[han]

I would open 3D, MisIry. Who wouldn't when playing it?

 

3D-3S

3NT*-pass

 

3D is weak with hearts or a 2-suiter with diamonds. 3S was forcing and natural (opener will bid 4H with a heart preempt, unlikely given our hand). 3NT shows diamonds and clubs, exactly four losers. Now responder would probably pass, though 4H to play is perhaps better.

 

 

When not playing MisIry I open 1D, really not close to a 2C opener. What was the plan, bid 2C followed by 3D followed by 3NT? Not a pretty picture of your hand.

 

I really dislike the 2D waiting bid, but I'm afraid that I would have no choice either, as I also play 2H as second negative.

[HeartA]

2C opening? It is not even close. It would be closer to 2C opener if the two suits were majors.

 

4S was OK imo, besaed on North's 3NT which meant stoppers (and length of course) in S. To go beyond game was bad with North's hand, with an overbid 2C opening and misfit hand.

[Winstonm]

This is a 2C opener if you and partner decide it is a 2C opener, but here it appears your system does not think it is a 2C opener as you had no way to show the hand or stop.

 

IMO, 2 suited must hold old fashioned "game in hand" otherwise the risk of being preempted is too great - with minors, this become even a rarer bird as it requires an 11 trick hand. My own personal system does not even attempt to cater to this rare holding. We concentrate on describing 3 hand types only: big nts, 1 suiters, and major 2 suiters.

 

Most 2C systems suck - to make them halfway workable requires precise assigned meanings to the opening bid requirements and strict adherence to those requirements.

 

Winston

[Double !]

1 diamond opener. neither minor has good suit quality, you can easily show this hand during further bidding, and the bidding is not dying at 1D.

 

DHL