Passed hand double of a 4M opener

[MickyB]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=shkj73dqj942cqjt6]133|100|Scoring: IMP

P-(4♠)-P-(P)

?[/hv]

[mr1303]

Yes I must admit I would double on this hand, as this time partner may well have a genuine penalty double. Compare with the other hand on a similar topic, when opener was in 3rd seat and may have a strong hand, here it's much less likely.

[Fluffy]

As you coud see in the other thread, I reopened with 1354 and jsut 8 HCP being vulnerable :))

[Free]

pass

[MickyB]

Woo, one vote for each so far :)

 

I'd double with a queen less, maybe even a king less - pard is so well placed to choose now. Admittedly he could be choosing between -590 and -800...

 

I think I'd like to get a double in on a 1444 11 count, but if the double could be on a singleton or a void pard is less likely to find the right action, so I'd keep schtum on that hand. I guess I would double on 05(35)s as well.

[Chamaco]

For my standards, this hand is unsuitable for 3 reasons:

 

1) void in opps suit: this is great if pard pulls, but when pard penalty passes (much more often when the potential pull is at the 5+level), he usually expects at least a singleton. The fact of having a void decreases a lot the potential for defense, and when we do double for takeout we must consider not only what will happen of pard pulls, but also what happens if pard converts;

 

2) too weak in high cards: I would need an A or K more (a Queen more in balancing seat), even if I am a passed hand.

Some people like to balance light with shortness in opps suit at ANY level, but I am not among them: I do think that it's losing bridge to give up with the right shape at the 1-2 level (sometimes 3), but as we get higher, as much as I like to bid, I think it's wiser to give up more often... :-)

 

3) bad texture: aceless hand, slow tricks, bidding on such hands and being doubled can turn in real busts.

[Guest Jlall]

pass...I would almost never X on this auction but that seems consistent as a passed hand really cannot commit by himself to either defending 4 spades Xed or playing at the 5 level. I would X with a hand such as -- AQxx xxxxx Axxx (which is impossible for a lot of people since they would open it). This hand has sufficient quick tricks and good offense if partner does pull. Xing with very little in the way of tricks is just asking for trouble imo. I would also X with x Axxx Kxxx Axxx (again a hand many would open) so I don't think 5440 is promise.

[cherdano]

Couple of weeks ago there was a similar hand (a tad stronger IIRC), and while the big majority favored a pass, Richard Pavlicek spoke up in favor of doubling. His main point was that this is exactly the hand partner should expect (I don't think partner should give us a spade singleton, Mauro, after we have established that we pass 1444 hands on this auction), so his decision would be almost double dummy. And -590 is not the end of the world, already compensated by a -300 vs -420 on another hand.

 

I do think that the lack of controls is a real problem with the hand in this thread, however.

 

Arend

[Chamaco]

I don't think partner should give us a spade singleton, Mauro, after we have established that we pass 1444 hands on this auction

 

I think that the spade singleton will be the "standard" expectation (at least that's what we are taught about from Lawrence and Cohen's books and other books that deal with competitive bidding) from which deviation are always possible.

 

I just think that the moire we deviate from the model hand, the better our strength should be.

 

Of course one can double with a void but it gets worse IMO, not better, so we need extra defensive tricks (e.g. hcp content) on the side than if we had a 4441 or 5431.

 

With a 5440 with little defense I much prefer a 4NT "two suited" takeout.

 

But perhaps this is just one of the many reasons why I am not a great player :-)

[Al_U_Card]

Pard is on lead and a H is likely. Your tricks are pretty slow and declarer doesn't need a lot outside to get to 10 tricks. I would rather have better (if fewer) honor cards to try the double.....

[Blofeld]

I would also double on a few 1444 hands, but I think partner should read me for a void here.

[MickyB]

Couple of weeks ago there was a similar hand (a tad stronger IIRC), and while the big majority favored a pass, Richard Pavlicek spoke up in favor of doubling. His main point was that this is exactly the hand partner should expect (I don't think partner should give us a spade singleton, Mauro, after we have established that we pass 1444 hands on this auction), so his decision would be almost double dummy. And -590 is not the end of the world, already compensated by a -300 vs -420 on another hand.

 

I do think that the lack of controls is a real problem with the hand in this thread, however.

Yes, you are right, I should have given it an ace somewhere!

 

The hand on RGB was:[hv=d=e&v=n&s=shaxxxdkxxxcqxxxx]133|100|(P)-P-(1♠)-P

(4♠)-?[/hv]

 

Notice we are vul against not!

 

Richard's comment was

 

"I would double, mainly because the hand is exactly what partner will expect. (Pass is clear if an unpassed hand.) The upside is much greater than the downside; partner can always pass (so maybe we lose 5 IMPs). On a good day, he will have a spade stack against speeding opponents, or perhaps xxx xx AQJxx KJx (for 5D) since he wouldn't be making loose overcalls at the vul."

[mr1303]

Yes, and partner shouldn't pass holding that hand. Like you did holding a similar hand, and picked up +100 instead of +600.

 

I was not impressed...

[MickyB]

Which hand - xxx xx AQJxx KJx? This is not worth a 2♦ overcall.

[Trpltrbl]

I would pass, most of the time.

I have great shape, but my Q's and J's are not really what I need. But then again with A's and K's I would have opened.

So Like I said I am not sure, it is to close to call and depends on situation and state of the match etc.

But 1 thing I will know for sure, I am never going to be 100% one way or the other on this type of hand.

 

GBB ;)

[Winstonm]

Pass. Looking for the best result possible - not the best possible result.

 

Winston (With help from S.J. Simon)

[mr1303]

Which hand - xxx xx AQJxx KJx? This is not worth a 2♦ overcall.

 

No, but it's not a pass of 4H X either.

The actual auction was:

 

1H P 4H X

 

and you left it in when we were making something (I forget which)

[MickyB]

Ah, fair enough. Bit different when the double is by an unpassed hand though.

[jdeegan]

:) Over a 4♠ preempt, I like to play old fashioned style. Double shows cards, probably enough to beat the contract. 4NT is for take out, putatively in three suits.

 

Logically, as a passed hand, one might alter these meanings. But, how? At the table I would assume 4NT to be for take out and double to be for penalties - maybe two trump tricks and an ace on the side.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

no, since I would have opened 1D,

more precise: being a passed hand

I wont dbl.

 

Why? The danger is to high, because

they will kill you.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[whereagles]

Tough call. Bidding feels right, but the hand is sooo defensive that 5x will have lousy play. I would pass or double depending on opps and my mood.

[luke warm]

it'd be hard for me to double here... i'd pass or, if i felt i just had to bid, i'd bid 4NT

[MickyB]

Tough call. Bidding feels right, but the hand is sooo defensive that 5x will have lousy play.

Hm, I'd have thought this hand was all offence and no defence.

[Guest Jlall]

Tough call. Bidding feels right, but the hand is sooo defensive that 5x will have lousy play.

Hm, I'd have thought this hand was all offence and no defence.

soft hands like this are better for defense than offense generally (KJs and QJs)

[MickyB]

Tough call. Bidding feels right, but the hand is sooo defensive that 5x will have lousy play.

Hm, I'd have thought this hand was all offence and no defence.

soft hands like this are better for defense than offense generally (KJs and QJs)

Soft honours in your short suits, yes, but I always thought that soft honours in your long suits will tend to not stand up on defence. I guess that depends on your partner's length in the suit.