Suggestion for Vugraph broadcast program

[flyingware]

First I want to express my cordial gratitude to all the directors, operators, and commentators of BBO Vugraph broadcast. I really enjoy a lot from it.

 

As well known, another thrilling match, Bermuda Bowl and Venice Cup is forthcoming. Definitely I do not want to miss it, and neither do many of my Chinese friends. However, there is one problem for them. Though the BBO interface have been nicely using Chinese characters under Chinese operating system. The broadcast is still in English (or some other languages, determined by the invited commentators) that many Chinese friends can not understand. On the other hand, public chat is prohibited for spectators, preventing us talking freely with friends.

 

We suggest a modification of the broadcast program. Instead of being a pre-determined room service, the broadcast can be more like a “channel provider”, namely, it tabulates the matches to be broadcasted, and users can create their own room (just like create a play table), select which match to watch, and invite their friends to enter. People inside the room can freely talk in their favored language, feeling like in a café. Of course, a big “show room” with invited commentators can still be kept.

 

I personally believed this will be a proper way for future broadcast, in particular considering the increasing trend of internationalization of BBO nowadays.

[uday]

According to Fred Gitelman, the next version of bbo will include (some form of) support for channels. Mind, he is away for 2-3 weeks for the Bermuda bowl and another 1-2 weeks for the ACBL nationals in Denver, so this will not happen until about December.

[Walddk]

Technical issues are not my desk (we have Fred and Uday as our experts), but I can understand the language problems many of our members have. Some may think that English is universal, but we know that it's not, and as often as it's practically possible we will offer commentary in multiple languages.

 

Over the past 3 years we have had commentary in English, French, Spanish, Polish, Italian, Russian, Turkish, Japanese, Chinese, "Indonesian", "Korean" and "Scandinavian". We believe that this is greatly appreciated by our members and we will continue to render this service as often as possible.

 

We won't have to look far. We will be offering "Scandinavian" commentary for our broadcast from Norway over the weekend.

 

Roland

[uday]

I suppose I could do something without waiting for fred; the interface would be primitive (driven by my server, not fred's client).

 

It could be something like this: you press F10, select a new channel option.

I pop up a small web page (the size of HELP-ME-FIND-A-GAME). From there you join/create channels. Then when you are at a vugraph table and say something, the chat could be redirected to whatever channel you belonged to.

The only channel option would be "include main channel chat?"

 

This would not be much work but I dont want to rush to implement it for Estoril do it if no one cares. Should we bother ?

[Walddk]

If you asked that question in the lobby news, the answer would be an overwhelming "yes". We only have a tiny minority of the members in the Forums, so what you get here would not be a fair estimate.

 

Not too much work, you said. Then why not try it and tell people about it in the lobby news.

 

Roland

[Blofeld]

If you asked that question in the lobby news, the answer would be an overwhelming "yes". We only have a tiny minority of the members in the Forums, so what you get here would not be a fair estimate.

That's a non sequitur, Roland. It's certainly true that only a small proportion of the members post on the forums, but I'm sure that uday knows that. The more important question is whether in this regard they are a representative minority. The distinguishing criterion is that people have chosen to sign up to the forums. Now, I can't be certain, but my guess here is that such people would be more likely, not less, than an 'average' BBO member to want this functionality.

 

All that said, I think it would be a nice idea, but I'm not sure how often I'd use it ; I'd need a group of like-minded people to watch with.

[uday]

Then why not try it and tell people about it

 

Same reason an emergency room doesnt deal first w/the injuries that are most interesting to doctors. If I do this, I wont do something else that might be more "important."

 

One of the inputs into what is important is whether people will use it or care about it.

[shoeless]

Gee let's see if I can get a handle on this - we ask (IN ENGLISH) if those who don't speak English would like to enjoy the premier event in the bridge world in which the greatest diversity of languages are present of any bridge event. 45 million bridge players in China - some of whom will be watching.

 

You know I just bet if you did this and let people know they could watch the BB, VC and SB and chat about it in their own language - you might have a few more people watching. Some local experts are likely to log in to these rooms and give some pretty sound commentary too.

 

Terrible idea - stick to the important stuff!

[hrothgar]

If you asked that question in the lobby news, the answer would be an overwhelming "yes". We only have a tiny minority of the members in the Forums, so what you get here would not be a fair estimate.

That's a non sequitur, Roland. It's certainly true that only a small proportion of the members post on the forums, but I'm sure that uday knows that. The more important question is whether in this regard they are a representative minority. The distinguishing criterion is that people have chosen to sign up to the forums. Now, I can't be certain, but my guess here is that such people would be more likely, not less, than an 'average' BBO member to want this functionality.

 

All that said, I think it would be a nice idea, but I'm not sure how often I'd use it ; I'd need a group of like-minded people to watch with.

Have to agree with Roland on this one:

 

The BBO forums are (predominantly) used by English speakers. I don't think that they provide a representative sample regarding hypothetical demand for Chinese or Polish channels.

[mycroft]

I would assume the option is there as it always has been for the Italians - they get their matches with Chinese commentary (which will be not only not understandable, but line noise to those of us in the 8-bit world), provided they do some work to set it up (or pay to have...)

 

I also realize that the Chinese bridge community may not be as organized or as rich (or have as rich sponsors) as the Italians.

 

But as I also assume there will be at least two tables shown, I'm sure Roland could put up one Chinese room, for at least one match, when there are Chinese teams in play, provided someone or two come up to him beforehand willing and able to commentate. Not all the time, mind you, but once or twice.

 

Michael.

[Walddk]

I am a firm believer in showing consideration for the minority whenever possible, but the fact is that the minority in this case is much larger than we may think. I can't put any figures on the table, but I am sure that we have thousands of non English speaking members at BBO - some of which are very keen vugraph spectators.

 

Uday knows better than anyone how many we have from for example Poland, Italy, France, Turkey, China, Japan and South America. Am I far off when I say that the large percentage of those members are non English speaking? I don't think so.

 

If this is true, I also think it's fair to say that this is not the case in the Forums. The reason for it is simple. The non English speaking members do not join the Forums because this is all in English (apart from the Italians perhaps who have a Forum in their own language).

 

This is why we should give them all the support we can regarding vugraph commentary. It's not our job to teach them English, but we have an obligation to give them the best we can under the circumstances: their own language one way or another.

 

Then add the significant point Rick (shoeless) raises:

 

You know I just bet if you did this and let people know they could watch the BB, VC and SB and chat about it in their own language - you might have a few more people watching. Some local experts are likely to log in to these rooms and give some pretty sound commentary too.

 

I am not the one who decides if this is more "important" than other issues. Uday and Fred are the decision makers. All I and others can do is encourage them to give the non English speaking members this opportunity.

 

Roland

[shoeless]

I would assume the option is there as it always has been for the Italians - they get their matches with Chinese commentary ... I also realize that the Chinese bridge community may not be as organized or as rich (or have as rich sponsors) as the Italians.

China Net - the chinese on-line program has about twice the players (10,000) as BBO comparing their respective peak times - so they are rather well organized - I don't know if China Net will be broadcasting from Estoril however.

 

The point is not whether there will be Chinese broadcast from the closed room for their matches - Uday and Roland nicely facilitated that at the 43rd PABF in Seoul by the way - rather the point is - if the Russian and German women's teams are being featured in a BBO match - a group of Chinese players can open a room to chat about the match in Chinese and in fact arrange their own commentators for that - all the while the main broadcast might proceed in English and Russian.

 

I understand fully that the vision for BBO and it's strategy for development are solely in the hands of the owners and they have to decide what gets done next based on what they deem the priorities to be. But in their wisdom they have opened up these forums to let people talk around the vision and the strategy - so I use the opportunity to put forward my case. As for knowing for sure that people will use such a facility - don't think one can ever be certain in advance - but I can assure you that if it isn't made available - no one will use it.

 

Seems to me if new subscribers to BBO is a goal - this may well be a potent avenue to let the non-English speaking bridge community know that BBO is interested in their business. The pay-back may not be significant immediately but I am guessing it will come.

[flyingware]

Thanks for all guys who are interested in this suggestion, in particular those who recognized the values of it. I also appreciate the efforts BBo has made and keeps on making towards a multi-linguistic environment.

 

I myself have little difficulty in understanding and speaking English, but I do have many many friends who are keen bridge player and can understand "Heart" as a major suit, but dont know it is also the vital part of our body ------ their English experience comes only from bridge. One friend of mine is a previous member of Chinese national team, and is now a club teammate of Zhuang Zejun and Shi Haojun (I wish some of you may know them). But his English is rather poor. I remeber the last time we watched a match with China involved on BBO, we had to open another MSN windows, I translated the messages from operators and commentators to him, and he explained the system used by Chinese players to me (and some other friends). It is rather a ridiculous way, isn't it?

 

As a computer programmer, I totally understand that the difficulty embedding a good (or bad) idea into a software. I would feel fairly satisfied, if, as uday said, this can be implemented by the end of this year.

 

As a workaround, I can suggest an easier way for the current situation. Is it possible to make private chats to all people on my friends list? namely, add an option of "all my friends" in the drop-down listbox of "Chat to", and make it default for a spectator in a broadcast room. Such an option is rather usual in many online games. I belive this option has many other practical uses. For example, if I want to orgnaize a team match with my friends, I don't need to yell in the lobby anymore. Also, I don't think the implementation of it will be very time-consuming.

[han]

As a workaround, I can suggest a easier way for the current situation. Is it possible to make private chats to all people on my friends list? namely, add an option of "all my friends" in the drop-down listbox of "Chat to", and make it default for a spectator in a broadcast room. Such an option is rather usual in many online games. I belive this option has many other practical uses. For example, if I want to orgnaize a team match with my friends, I don't need to yell in the lobby anymore. Also, I don't think the implementation of it will be very time-consuming.

 

I think that this is a great idea.

[uday]

My Q wasnt about whether to try implementing channels, it was whether to try to rush in a server-driven version before Estoril or whether to wait for the next client release and do it "properly". I'm not sure I will try, but I might.

 

Chat to all-friends-at-once will lead to spam issues unless the process of adding friends requires confirmation from the 'friend'. It gets a little messy.. it wont happen anytime soon.

[adf]

I'll start with a general request on channels--please do it right, not rush in.

 

I would like to request that when channels are implemented, it be possible to listen to more than one simultaneously. I would like to be able to listen (and contribute) on an open kibbitzers' channel, but not to miss the main commentary. I also think that channels should have some features that already exist for tourneys and clubs--namely, an owner who can either restrict membership based on friendship or explicit permission, and who can kick people off or mute them.

 

Also, have you (Uday & Fred) considered hooking up something like Babelfish to provide automated translation of commentary? It might need some customization for this environment, but if there are only a couple of words which come out funny, readers could probably get used to it. Maybe this could be used for all chat. A couple of days ago, I was playing against a pair who were chatting heavily in a language which I couldn't read. I trusted that they were not cheating, but would have liked to see what they had to say.

 

With regard to chat to friends and the spam issue, what if that feature only delivered the message to people who reciprocated the friendship? That is, not only are they on your friends list, but you are also on their friends list. Perhaps if you are in VuGraph, it would send only to friends watching the same table.