Two-edged sword

[Al_U_Card]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=skqxxxxhxxxdkxcjx&s=sxhxdaqjxxxcat9xx]133|200|Scoring: MP

P -P-1♥-???

3♥ if possible[/hv]

 

Our agreement is to not open a weak 2 in 1st or 2nd seat with 3 cards in the other major......how should South bid his hand and when West now bids 3H what actions should follow?

[Guest Jlall]

I would bid 2D with south hand, 3S over 3H with north hand, 4C with the south hand, 4D with the north hand, pass by south.

[Trpltrbl]

I agree with Justin, I don't see 2NT with South hand. Hand is intermediate.

 

GBB :P

[luke warm]

i'd bid 2NT with south, going with klinger's 'rule of 15' (length in 2 suits plus honors in 2 suits)... besides, i think the south hand is a pretty damn good one

[pclayton]

2♦ followed by 4♣.

 

Whats the weak 2 (or lack thereof) have to do with the problem? Loos like we are getting to 4♦ which needs semi-friendly clubs to make.

[mikeh]

2♦ seems correct, with the weaker, shorter ♣ suit in reserve. I would not want to bid 2N here because partner will usually, in my experience, choose ♣ as the trump suit with equal holdings: not a problem if he has lots of them, but a real problem if he is 2=2 or so. Which, btw, your (in my view overly restrictive and overly informative to the opps) weak 2 agreement makes more likely than for those of us unfettered by such rules.

 

Further BTW, I cannot imagine passing (for example)432 KQJ10xx QJx x in 1st or second seat... my guess is that you get outbid quite a lot while very rarely gaining any benefit: but then if everyone bid the same way, the game would be a lot less interesting :P

 

As for the rest of the auction, 3♠ seems clear, as does 4♣ and a 4♦ preference, ending the auction.

 

Ironically, in view of my above criticism of your method, it may have gained on this hand, since over 2♠ East may or may not bid 3♥ but it is impossible to see how south can declare a ♦ partial.

[kfgauss]

Ironically, in view of my above criticism of your method, it may have gained on this hand, since over 2♠ East may or may not bid 3♥ but it is impossible to see how south can declare a ♦ partial.

I've declared 4♦= on a similar hand (south slightly stronger, north slightly weaker) after the auction: 2♠ - 3♦; 3♠ - 4♣; 4♦ - P.

 

Of course, this North will probably bid more strongly, but we may still be able to use our judgement as South to stop in 4♦ on certain auctions.

 

Incidentally, what do people bid with North over 2♠ - 3♦ (forcing)? If you rebid just 3♠, do you jump to 5♦ over 4♣, or do you in fact repeat the above auction?

 

Andy

[Guest Jlall]

Incidentally, what do people bid with North over 2♠ - 3♦ (forcing)?

I'd bid 4D. My Kx has to be good for pard. the KQ of spades is to be DEVALUED though if partner is not raising spades.

[mr1303]

After P P 1H 2D

3H

 

is 3S not a FNJ? Whilst you do have some diamond tolerance, it isn't enough to force to the 4 level on a 5-2 fit.

 

Hence I think that after 1H 2D 3H North really has to pass, South may stick 4C in, corrected to 4D. And you'll probably play there.

[Finch]

That's why you can't play 3S as a strict FNJ on this auction.

You can't possibly think passing 3H is right? What do you expect partner to do looking at

 

Ax

x

AQxxxx

Kxxx

 

when 3H comes back to him?

[MickyB]

That's why you can't play 3S as a strict FNJ on this auction.

You can't possibly think passing 3H is right?

Personally, I think opening 2♠ is right!

 

I'm not quite sure where I stand on this issue, but playing normal preempts there can't be many hands worth 3♠ here as a passed hand.

[Fluffy]

1♥-2♦-3♥-3♠*

anything-5♦

 

3♠*= this shows some kind of support obviously

5♦ if you have support I have game values.

[mr1303]

Was it not the case that on This hand here everyone said that 3S was a FNJ?

 

How has the fact that it was hearts opened and not diamonds change the meaning of 3S?

 

And I don't think that passing 3H is correct, but I also think that you have no choice, since you don't have the support for partner that 3S shows. This is why I would have opened 2S in the first place.

[Al_U_Card]

Just to add to the remix, pard chose to bid 2NT and when I passed the 3H bid (decent opps, so I know that RHO is weak with 4H cards) I really wanted to bid 3S but if pard doesn't have the S ace, and I get a S lead....so I passed, RHO bid 4H and Pard bid 4NT!.. Expecting the 'big" hand (we play, at this vul., less than 10 or more than 15 hcp) I bid 5D, got doubled and went down 1 for a zero.

 

Post mortem.....when I didn't bid my spades, and LHO bid 4H, pard decided to sac against the game they were going to make.......

 

I felt that with the 2NT bid, I had no safe place to land while a 2D bid would have induced me to show the S suit....

 

The restriction on the 3 cards in the other major is only for 1st or 2nd seat.

[Guest Jlall]

Was it not the case that on This hand here everyone said that 3S was a FNJ?

 

How has the fact that it was hearts opened and not diamonds change the meaning of 3S?

The difference is that your (silly imo) system on this hand restricts you from making a lot of "normal" preempts which you have to cater to later in the auction on this hand.

[cherdano]

That's why you can't play 3S as a strict FNJ on this auction.

You can't possibly think passing 3H is right?

Personally, I think opening 2♠ is right!

 

I'm not quite sure where I stand on this issue, but playing normal preempts there can't be many hands worth 3♠ here as a passed hand.

I like to play that any 3-level or higher new suit bid by a passed hand is a FNJ. This works well if you don't have academic preempt requirements and you open light.

But of course Frances is right if "you" was addressing the original poster or anyone else who would pass the hand in this thread.

 

Arend

[Al_U_Card]

The difference is that your (silly imo) system on this hand restricts you from making a lot of "normal" preempts which you have to cater to later in the auction on this hand.

I'm not particularly retentive about the "rule" but that is what we agreed to play. So I live with it until further notice. Conversely, when I come in with what looks like a weak-2 holding, pard is aware that I likely have cards in the other major , which can be a help on defense or in deciding to compete.

[Guest Jlall]

I'm not particularly retentive about the "rule" but that is what we agreed to play. So I live with it until further notice. Conversely, when I come in with what looks like a weak-2 holding, pard is aware that I likely have cards in the other major , which can be a help on defense or in deciding to compete.

Don't get me wrong, if that is your agreement you were right to stick to it of course. My point was just the same negative inferences do not apply when you don't open a weak 2 (but you have more inferences available when you do). Because of this, a 3S bid could be a hand like this as opposed to having a fit.

[Al_U_Card]

btw, any comments on the 3S bid when pard bid 2NT? Does it become less desirable, as I thot, or am I in meds land again...

[Guest Jlall]

Your hand is a mixed blessing opposite a 2N bid. You should LOVE your minor suit honors, but the fact that you're 2-2 is discouraging. You have a lot of values (relatively) though, and even if pard is just 5-5 in the minors he may have 2 spades. He won't have garbage at this vulnerability. I think I would bid 3S but it's understandable that you didn't.

[han]

Peter,

 

I'm sorry to hear that you have the agreement that you cannot open 2S because of your xxx in hearts. I think that this is really bad for several reasons, not least because it will help the opponents when they get to play in a heart contract. Please do alert this treatment, as it can be a very useful inference for the opponents.

 

Of course, if you have this agreement, then you did well to pass.

 

I agree with Frances that if you are not allowed to open with the north hand, then you should not play FNJ's here. Another good reason just to open 2S with 3 or 4 hearts.

 

My auction playing your system would be:

 

(1H)-2D-(3H)-3S

(p)-4C-(p)-4D

all pass.

[Al_U_Card]

(1H)-2D-(3H)-3S

(p)-4C-(p)-4D

all pass.

My exact suggestion to my pard.

[mike777]

Peter,

 

I'm sorry to hear that you have the agreement that you cannot open 2S because of your xxx in hearts. I think that this is really bad for several reasons, not least because it will help the opponents when they get to play in a heart contract. Please do alert this treatment, as it can be a very useful inference for the opponents.

 

Of course, if you have this agreement, then you did well to pass.

 

I agree with Frances that if you are not allowed to open with the north hand, then you should not play FNJ's here. Another good reason just to open 2S with 3 or 4 hearts.

 

My auction playing your system would be:

 

(1H)-2D-(3H)-3S

(p)-4C-(p)-4D

all pass.

Hehe I prefer to not open 2s in first or second seat because of K of D, so hang in there Peter :lol:. As Han and others have said wtp with 2D etc ;).

[adf]

I agree that this is not a 2NT call. With two aces, it can't be weak, and if you consider it strong, you need to reopen with a double, which is a substantial overbid. Partner will pass happily with Kxxx KQJ xxx xxx which is not likely to be a good result.