Drury

[helene_t]

I agree with you on the princple but the problem is problem is you cant explain some of those bids because they are random.

Its not allowed to explain a 3rd hand opening 1S as could be anything.

There are two issues here.

 

1) "Could be anyting" is inaccurate. You don't open 1♠ on a doubleton with 28 HCPs. Full disclosure, please.

 

2) If formalized, many psyche-habbits would become HUM or BSC.

 

I know that in some jurisdictions you can't psyche a strong 2♣ opening, but as I read the Dutch laws, we are free to use the relay to 2♣ as a psyche control, except that psyche controls are not allowed. The same may apply to some notrump structures.

 

But I suppose that it's ok to play those psyche-controling conventions as long as they are not used as such. With respect to Drury, then, we need to draw a line between a light opening and a psyche. What about a lead-directing opening on AKJ ?

[pigpenz]

I think again its gets to full disclosure.....if you ask what it means and they tell you and then they dont bid accordingly then they arent telling you everything. My parntership we play that two way drury and with an opening hand and suitable length you bid according to what the law or distribution says. If they do this maybe once is ok but once it happens more than that then it becomes a partnership understanding and must be alerted :)

[Gerben42]

The problem with NOT playing Drury is hands like:

 

[hv=s=skxxhjxxdaqtxxcxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

You're too heavy for a simple raise, and you will NOT be happy if partner passes 2♦ with a minimum but 5-card major, especially at MP. As a side bonus whenever you invite beyond 2♠ here you will be 1 down.

[Winstonm]

Controlled psyche is an oxymoron.

 

Winston

[Walddk]

Controlled psyche is an oxymoron.

 

Winston

And oxymoron is a word not all Canadians would understand I bet.

 

Roland

[mike777]

The problem with NOT playing Drury is hands like:

 

[hv=s=skxxhjxxdaqtxxcxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

You're too heavy for a simple raise, and you will NOT be happy if partner passes 2♦ with a minimum but 5-card major, especially at MP. As a side bonus whenever you invite beyond 2♠ here you will be 1 down.

If partner cannot bid over 2D/2s how bad can this be at imps.

At MP just make a constructive raise to 2s showing 3 pieces and 7-10 hcp. If game is reasonable they can make another move, at least you are in the major at MP.

[Walddk]

At MP just make a constructive raise to 2s showing 3 pieces and 7-10 hcp. If game is reasonable they can make another move, at least you are in the major at MP.

The problem is, however, that 2♠ is not constructive if you have Drury on your cc. Dump it then? Fine by me (and David Burn, he asked me to tell you).

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

If partner cannot bid over 2D/2s how bad can this be at imps.

At MP just make a constructive raise to 2s showing 3 pieces and 7-10 hcp. If game is reasonable they can make another move, at least you are in the major at MP.

and what do you do with less than 7 and a raise to 2S?

[mike777]

I bid 1nt which is non forcing by passed hand. If partner is 5332 with 11-13 I expect to play 1nt or have the opp bid something since we have so few hcp :P.

 

Yes Roland dump Drury but we have had this debate before and I was very much in the minority.

 

 

As a side note I estimate the opp bid something on at least 60% of all hands. Do you forum posters find the percentage significantly different in your games?

[pigpenz]

Controlled psyche is an oxymoron.

 

Winston

so are giant shrimp :P

 

but say ifyou play 2♣ 11-15hcp clubs suit no 4 card major matchpoint preciscion style and you have a hand

2-2-4-5

 

you are pretty safe bidding a non forcingt 2♥ or 2♠ with a zero count black vs red and going down 7 or 8 if there are not doubles, to me that is a controlled psyche or possibly a systemic psyche?

[helene_t]

but say ifyou play 2♣ 11-15hcp clubs suit no 4 card major matchpoint preciscion style and you have a hand

2-2-4-5

 

you are pretty safe bidding a non forcingt 2♥ or 2♠ with a zero count black vs red and going down 7 or 8 if there are not doubles, to me that is a controlled psyche or possibly a systemic psyche?

Interesting point .... maybe what's illegal is a special partnership agreement that allows psycher to say "I psyched" or his partner to ask "did you psyche"?

 

In another thread, Fred mentioned that it probably shouldn't even be considered a psyche to bid 3NT on partner's preempt since there is no agreement about 3NT from which you could deviate: it just means that we are going o play 3NT, at least as long as it isn't doubled.

 

in fact there are many standard situations in which you can psyche with little risk with a weak hand with support for partner's suit.

 

As for the NF responses to the precision 2♣ opening: people who are unfamiliar with Precision may expecrience it as a special partnership agreement, but in fact it is not different from a NF response to an overcall.

 

Which all confirms that the concept of controlled psyches is muddy. And also obsolete. Full Disclosure must be sufficient.

[MarceldB]

IMO, "controlled psyches" do not exist.  A psyche by definition deviates from partnership agreement.  If you have an agreement that a certain bid X in a certain sequence is either one hand or another very weak hand type and you have a mechanism by which responder can determine which one you have then what you have is a convention, not a controlled psyche.  If you don't tell the opponents that you with any regularity possess the very weak hand type then you are guilty of failure to alert/misinformation and not guilty of using a controlled psyche.  There are numerous bidding scenarios where one hand simply answers questions and the other hand determines when to stop and where to place the contract.  In these scenarios, the hand that asks the questions can pretty much "psyche" at will.  Such psyches are becoming so prolific in one system that I play that I'm wondering what the proper form to disclose them is.  Do I pre-alert and say "we frequently hold weak hands when we make invitational+ relay initiating bids" and/or do I say "invitation+ or tactical weak hand" everytime I make such a bid?

Hi Todd,

 

Regarding your last question:

 

as opponent I should like to know the percentage of the weak possibility taking into account position of the bids/vulnerability and your cq. your partner's habits.

I.m.o no pre-alert but part of your system.

 

====

Psychic bids protected by system or required by system= Brown Sticker. (rule D)

 

If you play f.e. a (HUM/WOS) relay-system, as you do, which is quite dominating, I can imagine -although it has a tendency of "discrimination" - that there could be made a new regulation that you are not allowed to employ BS-rule D .

Because within such a highly artificial system in which the Relayer keeps the control you have so many possibilities (even if it's the first or second time; so no partnership understanding=agreement) to use it.

 

And frankly spoken: do you need it really ? ;-)

 

I have seen yesterday on bbo a simple HUM system in action:

Pass= normal 1D opening

1D= 0-11

rest= quite normal

 

 

1D - (P) - 1NT - (X)

P - (P) - XX - (P)

2C - (2S)

all pass (+3). Not clever of the opponent, but what can you expect of a pick-up partnership opposite such a HUM-pair.

 

I will explain the bids:

 

1D= 0-11

1NT= 11-13

P= relay (take out no 5 card I suppose)

XX= transfer to Clubs (i.m.o. no 5 card and any 4432/4443)

2C= C+ 4crd. else

 

1D had 6 points

1NT bidder had 5 points and a flat shape (3=3=3=4) and he took no risk (NV opposite V) because wat could happen?

 

after opponents X his partner could bid:

P= take out no 5+ card --> find your (moysian) fit

XX= a max --> 1NT-bidder bids his 4+ card --> find your fit again

2x= 5+ card no maximum--> and pass with comfort

 

Even if this was the first time (which I don't trust, seeing an other board

(1C) - P - (1H) - 1S

(1NT)-P

 

1S bidder (NV op. V) had xx, xxx, AKJxxx, xxx, and his partner ATxx, Qxx, 9xxx, Qx,

1C bidder reached 3NT and D lead. The fact that in the first 4 boards, 2 psyches appear is an idication.

They are balancing between full disclosure, partnership understanding, psyches (BS or not)

 

For the sake of good order, Todd, above examples nothing to do with your bidding practice, but to illustrate how difficult this matter can be.

Hum-pair said that is was a psyche. I.m.o., giving the benefite of the doubt, it was a BS-bid.

But it still stinks.

Apart of the matter how to prove it wasn't a psyche.

 

=======

[Gerben42]

Marcel: I would rule misexplanation and close to cheating in your situation. I know you can agree that it's 11 - 14 HCP but come on. Common sense says you won't be punished if it's not. SO TELL THEM!

 

Controlled psyche is improper disclosure.

 

With one Magic Diamond partner I play this sequence:

 

1♠ (8 - 12 with 4 or 6+ ♠) - 1NT (relay not GF)

 

This would be a controlled psyche if I would explain it was a strong relay because it isn't. So I tell opponents what it REALLY is, i.e. won't have a own long suit or a 4-card fit, but otherwise most other hands that won't want to pass 1♠.

 

Another situation. You can play "without danger" that a strong 2♣ opener can be a weak hand with long ♦. No problem at all. BUT TELL YOUR OPPONENTS!

[MarceldB]

I just have checked the example boards (did not knew that's possible), reason why slightly adjusted, but not influencing the merits at all.

=====

 

If a pair plays a HUM, I should not wonder that BS bids are included.

As mentioned a psyche protected or required by the system is a BS ànd legal if BS is permitted.

 

Still starting from a psyche (you have to because you do not have experience with that HUM-pair)

the fact remains that you can't prove it isn't, although you have your serious doubts.

 

In real life you can inform as a notification the director and that's it.

In a club environment more of such behaviour will be noticed very quickly. Tournament/drives are already more difficult. I don't have experience with playing on line but I suppose you can send an e-mail and again as notification only of course (treat your opponent as you would like to be treated).

 

In the framework of an artificial relaysystem - even if you are covered by the regulations officially - I have my doubts regarding psyches.

Not only because the control mechanism if it is partnership understanding or not is imperfect, but also the risk of your psyche is substantial compared with other systems.

 

Seeing my Avatar and motto, you will understand that I hate restrictions, but even for me there are limits.... :D

[barmar]

Another situation. You can play "without danger" that a strong 2♣ opener can be a weak hand with long ♦. No problem at all. BUT TELL YOUR OPPONENTS!

Perhaps this is the reason ACBL prohibits psyching strong artificial openings.

[helene_t]

Another situation. You can play "without danger" that a strong 2♣ opener can be a weak hand with long ♦. No problem at all. BUT TELL YOUR OPPONENTS!

Perhaps this is the reason ACBL prohibits psyching strong artificial openings.

Perhaps, but in that case it is for the wrong reason.

 

If you play the version of Pubbet Stayman popular in the NL, where a 3NT response to 2NT shows 5s4h, it is similarely risk free to open 2NT on a weak 5h5c in third seat nonvulnerable.

 

If you have an agreement that allows you to make risk-free psyches, and you actually make those risk-free psyches, the psyche must be treated as an agreement and must be disclosed as such (and must conform to whatever HUM/BSC regulations are in force). Whether the psyche itself is an artificial bid is not the issue, IMHO.

[Gerben42]

Perhaps this is the reason ACBL prohibits psyching strong artificial openings.

 

But they also disallow 2♣ showing either weak ♦ or strong. They want it both ways. Long live their very narrow comfort zone *yuck*