jillybean Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 [hv=d=n&v=n&n=s84hj9dj975cj10975&s=saq932hk10432dak6c]133|200|Scoring: MP1nt(p)2♣(all pass)[/hv] Its an indy, you don't ban psyches.You are called to the table by South - what do you do? I need some help to understand psyches as opposed to outright disruptive bidding. tyiajb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 If you don't ban psyches I don't know what you can do. This one didn't work, if it had would south still be calling? He has to take the good and the bad, thats what indys are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 Just so I'm sure... It looks as if the 2♣ bidder called the director on his own partner?Weird, but I've seen weirder Comment 1: The powers that be decided long ago that psyches are supposed to be "random" in nature. Players are not have any kind of agreement regarding where and when they are supposed to psyche. Accordingly, I don't see how we can rule against a player for chosing to make a non-systemic bid on an occasion that it doesn't make sense "systemically". I recognize that some Zones attempt to regulate psyches based on the presumption that they randomize the game. This has always struck me as part of the whole logically fallacy that psyche exist... Comment 2: I'm not particularly big on first seat, red versus white psyches. It strikes me as a losing tactic. With this said and done, players are allowed to make bad decisions. If we start throwing out of tournaments because they do something stupid, where do we draw the line? For example, should we also ban players who bid Stayman with 5-5 in the majors? Comment 3: There is an old saying: "Bridge is a partnership game" or some such. I'm opposed to penalizing the N/S partnership for their psyche. However, the thought of being able to penalize North for his own ludicrous directors call is ALMOST enough for me to hit the parntership with a penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted October 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 Justin - youre right but I believe there is a difference between psyches and destructive bidding -(that is from comments I have read here and recieved from others)Where does this bid belong and how do I recognize the difference or as Richard says should I even be bothered trying to regulate good, bad, destructive psyches. Richard - yes south called me after his partner opened 1nt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olegru Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 Write Norths name in "black notebook." If I would see him one more time doing such a risky psyche I would ask him to play more seriouse in my tournaments. After third time I would ban him from my tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 Justin - youre right but I believe there is a difference between psyches and destructive bidding -(that is from comments I have read here and recieved from people regarding other psyches)Where does this bid belong and how do I recognize the difference or as Richard says should I even try to regulate psyches? Richard - yes south called me after his partner opened 1nt. Traditionally when people are discussing "destructive" bids they are referring to systemic bids like a multi 2♦ or a 1♠ fert. For example, the ACBL has decided that an Ekrens 2♦ opening showing 4+ Hearts and 4+ Spades is destructive because its primary purpose is to prevent the opponents from finding their best fit. In this thread, you seem to be using destructive as synonomous with "random". I think that it is dangerous to do so. I have seen some lines of argument that attempt to blur the distinction. For example, arguments regaridng Convention Disruption often hinge arround random results that occur when players don't fully understand the conventions that they are using. In general, Convention Disruption don't carry much weight, however, there are isolated case where they are actually enshrined in the local Laws. (Ghestem misunderstandings are the classic example) As I noted earlier: A regulatory structure that simultaneously maintains 1. Psyches are legal2. Psyches must be random3. Random bids are destructive4. Random bids are not allowed is logically inconsistent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 I agree, with you that if someone opened, say, 7N and XXed on this hand you would obviously adjust. You must be VERY clear in these situations though if you are going to adjust it. The 1N bid would not have been my choice but it could easily have worked, and theres no evidence he was trying to get his partner a bottom board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 A psyche is a bid made with the intention to disturb opponents ability to find their best contract, hoping to get away with with a good score. A disruptive bid is a bid made with the intention to punish partner with a very bad score or push an opponent with a very good score, not even hoping to get away. In this case, North opened 1NT hoping that partner would bid Stayman, so that he can pass. If South raised to 3NT or more, he would have to take a bad score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted October 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 Sometimes it is unclear to me that a bid is a psyche as opposed to lets call them stink bids, subtler than 7nt. I would not open 1nt as a psyche here, I know that does not make it illegal but it does make it difficult to make a decision. I have just found reference to frivolous psyching, can someone give me some examples of what a frivolous psyche would look like? The EBU Orange Book section 6 Psychic Bidding 6.1.5 Frivolous psyching, suggesting you have lost interest in the competition or are enjoying yourself at the expense of others, is a breach ofthe Laws. (Law 74A2, 74B1, 74C6) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candybar Posted October 15, 2005 Report Share Posted October 15, 2005 Opening 1N with no points and long clubs is fairly common, and very effective, as psyches go. It is not illegal and not disruptive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted October 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Here's another psyche from a "world class" player, in an indy after a couple of not so good boards. His partner asked that I ban this player from my tournaments.This just looks like a rotten bid rather than a tactical psyche... [hv=d=s&v=b&s=sxxhaq10xdkxxcxxxx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv] South opened 3♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Here's another psyche from a "world class" player, in an indy after a couple of not so good boards. His partner asked that I ban this player from my tournaments.This just looks like an awful bid rather than a tactical psyche... [hv=d=s&v=b&s=sxxhaq10xdkxxcxxxx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv] South opened 3♣ Silly (I could find other less flattering words). Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted October 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Silly but still legal? Should these bids be allowed in tournaments, in indys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Silly but still legal? Should these bids be allowed in tournaments, in indys? Legal yes. Psyches as well as silly bids are part of the game. Should they be allowed? Certainly, until you change the laws. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 sure, its part of bridge they should be allowed unless you want to stipulate the level of bridge players you are intending to hold the competition for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted October 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Sorry to labor the point – there does seem to be some controls on psyches in both the EBU and ACBL, I haven’t looked further than that. Excessive Psychic BiddingFrivolous Psychic BiddingUnsportsmanlike Psychic Bidding Page 37-40 http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/clubs...Decisions04.pdf It appears these laws are there to protect the field against reckless bidding as opposed to tactical psyches. I need help in understanding and applying them. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Intentionally bad bids are not allowed. Beginner's mistakes are allowed. It's as simple as that. If someone opens 7NT on ten-pointer and redoubles you judge that it's an intentionally bad bid, even if the player has Novice on his profile. You should be very careful to declare a bad bid "intentional" in less trivial cases. Especially when it comes to psyches. It is not easy to say what kind of psyches are meaningfull and which are not, let alone to say whether some unknown player could plausibly have considered some bid to be a meaningful psyche. It could be argued that people who put "advanced" on their profile are not expected to make elementary mistakes. But is it consistent to accuse someone of being unethical while at the same time taking his self-rating serious? A lot of otherwise nice people have inflated self esteme. Besides, considering the level of many "experts" it is understandable that some beginners may think they are World Class. Some people joke with self-rating, or inflate their rating because they know that as low intermediates they actually do quite well in the expert-only turneys. It could also be argued that novices are not expected/supposed to play with advanced toys like psyches. I have some understanding for that line of thought but it's a slipery-slope, and highly subjective. Some devoted 4-card major teachers believe that beginners are not supposed to know about 5-card majors, and vice versa. In general, I think you make life to complicated for yourself if you introduce turney-specific rules. Legal issues aside, it is in everybody's interest that the turneys are not only run correct but also pleasant. With that in mind, I agree with olegru. You can tell this North that allthough strictly legal, this kind of bidding is not appreciated. This cannot be a reason to adjust the score, but maybe to blacklist North if he continues to bid like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Here's another psyche from a "world class" player, in an indy after a couple of not so good boards. His partner asked that I ban this player from my tournaments.This just looks like an awful bid rather than a tactical psyche... Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: MP ♠ xx ♥ AQ10x ♦ Kxx ♣ xxxx South opened 3♣ Silly (I could find other less flattering words). Like "Yeah, world class."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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