two questions

[sceptic]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=skqj542ht64d2ct85&w=st63h732djt864ck3&e=sa87hajdkq5cj7642&s=s9hkq985da973caq9]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     1♥

 Pass  2♥    Dbl   RDbl

 2♠    Pass  Pass  3♦

 Pass  3♥    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

Question 1/. should I introduce my spade suit ( my thoughts were no as I had a fit with partner and I did not have many HCP)

 

Question 2/. should I X 2 spades (is it penalites in this position or is it take out or could it be taken as something else)

[Guest Jlall]

1) I'm a big believer in raising immediately with 4 or 5 spades and 3 hearts if you have just simple raise strength. Even with 6 spades I will often do this. The reason is, after bidding 1S if partner bids 2 of a minor, your simple preference will usually be based on a doubleton. That said, with this hand I would start with 1S. The north hand is really about spades. In hearts, you won't get to enjoy the spade suit and may actually take 0 tricks for partner. In spades, it will provide 5 tricks. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but that is why I'd start with 1S, violating the support with support rule. If partner raises spades (optimistic) or rebids some amount of no trump, I'll be glad I bid them. If partner bids 2 of a minor, it would even be reasonable to bid 2S but I would now bid 2H.

 

2) Yes X is penalty. Partners XX invited you to start hammering them. Should you X? Well...they probably have a better spot, but partner can probably X it. If you pass partner who is almost surely void in spades (you don't know they're in a 3-3) will bid, and he may even pull your X but at least the X would slow him down. I would X, not really expecting them to play in 2S though.

[inquiry]

1) Raise with support and less than encouraging values. 2H is right.

 

2) I would double 2S because if you don't partner is surely going to bid again. But if you double, you will surely have to decide if you want to stick in 3C or 3Dx (3C for sure, 3D, brrrrr).... Occassionally 3Sx goes all pass... yummy.

[mikeh]

1. I would bid 1♠. While I agree with the idea that a limited hand should raise rather than bid his own suit, this ♠ suit is just too good to leave unbid. If partner bids 2♥, showing a 6 card suit, I would probably invite at imps if vulnerable (unless we play very light openings) and pass overwise. If he rebids 1N, I will be delighted to bid 2♠: my hand will take more tricks in a 6-2 ♠ fit than his will in a 5-3 ♥ fit (most of the time). If he bids 2minor, I preference to 2♥ without embarrassment and so on.

 

2. I would double for penalties. I like the redouble to suggest playing for penalties, so usually opener shows a good 5332 with defensive values and (obviously) enough to be comfortable that 2♥ is making. I would not redouble as South here: the auction screams that they have a decent ♠ fit (most of the time you will hold 3 or fewer ♠) and South should consider three factors: he does not want to hear you double 2♠ ; he does want to preempt LHO out of bidding ♠; and his hand is now likely worth a game try: the AQx of ♣ is probably worth AKx. So I would bid 3♦ as a game try if I were south: the trump suit and the ♦ texture are too weak to commit to game.

 

PS: Justin, I was not copying you :o I just saw your post as I was previewing mine to eliminate spelling errors

[mike777]

As I recall this hand and one other one that Wayne was playing raised a great nonexpert issue that has been discussed often but is worth more explanation.

 

What the heck does double mean and when? I raise the question in the most basic form, when is double clear penalty and when is it clear takeout?

 

On this hand the meaning of double was far from clear for many of the newer players/kibitzers.

 

Please note on this hand we had one bid of double, one bid of redouble and at least one bid of pass that may be a double.

[Guest Jlall]

If partner makes a XX showing values and interest in defending Xs are penalty. That is a good rule I think.

[Walddk]

2. I would double for penalties. I like the redouble to suggest playing for penalties, so usually opener shows a good 5332 with defensive values

I agree with almost everything Justin and Mike are saying, but I am not so sure that 5332 is the most likely pattern for the redouble. If it is, 18-19 must be the range since he didn't open 1NT. More often he will have 5422 or 5431 with 16+.

 

Roland

[Al_U_Card]

How about, "When the hand has been defined (limited), doubles are for penalty."

[Walddk]

Let me repeat the excellent rule of thumb for doubles of low level contracts. Doubles are for take-out, unless:

 

1) It's obvious that the opponents have a misfit.

2) Preceded by a redouble.

 

In all other cases double is for take-out.

 

2) Applies here, so it's a penalty double.

 

Roland

[mikeh]

2. I would double for penalties. I like the redouble to suggest playing for penalties, so usually opener shows a good 5332 with defensive values

I agree with almost everything Justin and Mike are saying, but I am not so sure that 5332 is the most likely pattern for the redouble. If it is, 18-19 must be the range since he didn't open 1NT. More often he will have 5422 or 5431 with 16+.

 

Roland

I would not open 1N with 17 hcp and a decent 5 card major: I upgrade those hands.

 

I would be reluctant to open 1N with 5♠ (1♥ is a different issue, since the 1♠ response may handcuff me)and 332 elsewhere if I had two weak suits: I don't mind redoubling with weakish holdings, since I expect partner to double only with some length and at least an honour.

 

I would not usually redouble with 16+ and a stiff since I would not know when to pass partner's double: yes, sometimes they avoid that suit, but the odds favour them finding it. With 16 and 5431, I am not sure of game, yet want to make a try, so unless they are red v white, I would prefer to make my game try and forgo the odd juicy penalty. 5422' s are much the same unless I have good doubletons (which I downgrade anyway... i like points in my long suits)

 

My wife had a hand yesterday that we were discussing later: she held AK109x A1098 x AQx

 

She opened 1♠, partner bid 2♠ (they did not play constructive raises) and RHO doubled. She redoubled and then had to guess over 3♦ doubled and passed to her. She pulled to 4♠.

 

My point was that she should have simply bid 4♠ over the double. She was going to game anyway, and was not passing a double of 3♦, since she was red and they were white and she had no idea how many ♦ the double showed. So she should jump to game rather than give away information.

 

Had she held the same hand with A109 xx in the reds, that would be too good for 1N and okay for defending 3♦ doubled: some chance of +800 with maybe game failing if only 300-500 were available.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1) yes, a 6-4 fit is better than a 5-3 fit

2) yes, the RDBL showed additional strength

and you know the opponents are in hot

water, if you let them go, ... they will push

you around.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[luke warm]

i would have bid 1S but i'd surely have x'd my rho's 2S bid

[Fluffy]

Question 1/. should I introduce my spade suit ( my thoughts were no as I had a fit with partner and I did not have many HCP)

)

The correct thing to do is to raise inmediatelly.

 

You can apply your criterium of course, on a hand like these I would probably forget forever I have 3♥ and bid twice ♠ leaving ♥ unraised forever (even if partner has ♠ singleton we can easilly make more tricks in ♠ than ♥), but this tactic is very masterminding so use it carefully ;)

 

Question 2/. should I X 2 spades  (is it penalites in this position or is it  take out or could it be taken as something else

 

Pass is correct, double is penalty and is correct as well, its jsut a guess but I would also pass since partner rates to get out of my double anyway leaving the chances of them competing to 3♠ null, and our best score can probably be 2♠ undoubled -3

 

Edit: ooopps I forgot partner had redoubled, then it is very clear you should double, sincee he has asked you to do it.

[pclayton]

Er this hand looks a little familiar. :P

 

Yes I think (thought) you should double 2♠.

 

I think the best form of a redouble is when opener is semi-balanced (like I was). It makes a stack that much more likely. If you hit 2♠, I'm putting the wood to 3 of a minor.

 

I was floored to see all the +170's and +620's. Did the really play for 3-3 spades and the ♥AJ coming down? :o ;) No 0 what had happened was East made a 2♣ overcall :huh: after 1♥ - 1♠ and West led the K♣..........