unwarranted abuse from director

[pigpenz]

almost an oxymoron isnt it :rolleyes:

any way i started off kibbing at a table when i went home and decided to go water plants for awhile when i came back there was a message from a player on my screen

 

"you can leave my table if you want to see if i m cheating you can check all t he hnads later but i will call td and report you for ZT"

 

they then said they would give me a minute to leave the table, well since i was outside watering the plants when i got back in it was the next round and i was at another table, saw the messages and was tring to figure out what was going on.

 

ACBL_XX said that YYYY said that i had accussed her of cheating

 

which is hard to do since you cant chat with players in an acbl event

 

so i tried to clarify with TD about what was going on

 

this is what followed:

 

Chat logging for pigpenz enabled at: Mon Oct 10 08:59:07 2005

 

->ACBL_xx: ok i sent copy of chat to abuse@ with yours and YYYY's chat msgs

ACBL_xx (Lobby): good - so have i

->ACBL_xx: why are you so pompous?

ACBL_xx (Lobby): she informs me you called her a cheater on sindau - not today

ACBL_xx (Lobby): do not talk to me anymore - your abuse is unwarranted

->ACBL_xx: no one calls anyone a cheaater they may question their calls

ACBL_xx (Lobby): she is reporting - ty

->ACBL_xx: and how is this abuse i am trying to figure out what this is all about

 

and that is the end of that.

 

queston:

can someone be barred from kibbing, i thought we had gone through this all before

 

and what about directors who are getting paid acting like pompous Jerks when they dont know any of the details. who do we report TD's to?

 

thanks its interesting cause i have no idea what this is really about, i can live with a player being mad about something in the heat of the battle but not a TD not knowing anything about what they are stepping into!!!

[jillybean]

I don't see any abuse from the TD here.

A perhaps-incorrect claim from a player that you think they cheat, the TD telling you xyz had complained that you accused them of cheating, then you calling the TD pompous?

 

The only obvious abuse here is your reference to pompous Jerks.

 

What am I missing?

 

jb

[Guest Jlall]

Seems both you and TD were being defensive (not unusual in these kind of matters). Don't worry about it, though, if you didn't actually accuse the person of cheating which I'm sure you didn't then nothing will happen. I think abuse can check chat logs.

[pigpenz]

yes talked to rain about it, I did feel that TD was overstepping his bounds though. I wasn't even at thet able when i received the msg from the player in fact didnt get back to puter till middle of next round.

 

they gave me one minute to leave the table or they would report me for ZT, so I sort of wanted to find out what was going on. Since i had no idea.

 

 

But the main question is:

 

can a person threathen you with ZT and turn you over over to abuse if you dont leave a table while kibbing at a table?????

 

some how i dont think so!

 

Somehow makes you makes you want to kib them even more when you werent kibbing them in the first place :rolleyes:

[mycroft]

There is a memo, deep down in the Tech Files of the ACBL, that has become "well, we all know this" lore - a player may bar any one kibitzer without cause, and any number for cause (but "I don't want people watching" isn't cause).

 

In an ACBL tournament, even online, this regulation would be in force, and if YYYY asked you to leave and you did not (even if you weren't there), she could call the TD and have him remove you.

 

I have only exercised this right once (in fact, what I asked was "either pull up a chair or leave, please" - to George Mittleman, as I found out later; I always seem to pick the experts to confront). But it's nice to know it's in my back pocket if I need it - and "makes you want to kib them even more" is a really good reason to be happy about that back pocket.

 

Michael.

[McBruce]

pigpenz:

 

Seems to me that by leading off with the threatening statement that you would sent your chatlog to abuse you began a needless confrontation with the TD. I can't imagine why you would not simply make a more passive opening lead like "TD, I was away from the computer, please explain what is going on here with the cheating allegations from playerxxxx." Your first and second statements are like guys taking off their shirts when they know there is a C*O*P*S cameraman around....

[pigpenz]

Like i said Rain took care of it! ;)

i was just trying to figure out how i could accuse someone of cheating when I wasnt even there. I was trying to get information from the TD about what this was all about.

 

So I did what Rain said, screen capture the whole event.

use the printscreen button case solved, case closed ;)

[inquiry]

The discussion here deals with the right of a player in ACBL events to ban a kibitzer from their table. This right is given in the condition of contest by the ACBL... which says, in part...

 

KIBITZING

 

1. Barring Kibitzers - No player has the right to bar all kibitzers from his table, but each player has the right to bar one individual (excluding tournament officials, the recorder or his designee(s), or officially approved members of the press) from kibitzing play at his table during a session without assigning cause. (A traveling player may bar only one individual during a session without assigning cause). Any kibitzer may be barred for cause by the Tournament Director.

 

The second question deals with the right of the Tourment director to ban a player, and there is also BBO rules to take into account also. Let's deal with the director's right. The director can ban any player for cause. If a director wants to insure the purity of his event, that cause might be to ban all kibitzers to reduce the chances for cheating. Since this is a director's call, and since this is "for a cause", it should be allowable under ACBL guidelines.

 

Then their are BBO rules. If a kibitzer or group of kibitzers bother a particular person, that person has the right (on BBO) to ban those kibitzers from his or her table. This is part of the be nice policy. And since people freely create new nicknames and come right back, you can see how this might not be a greatly workable solution, especially in tournments (in main room, you can ask the table host to block kibitzers). Here we have a conflict, the solution of which I haven't forumulated an opinion. Of course, one hopes everyone acts like civilized people, and if you are asked not to kibitz, you don't. One player asked me not to kibitz them, and I don't to this day. That works for me.

[pigpenz]

question is how do you get rid of a kibber from the table. In this particular case the player wanted me to leave and gave me one minute to leave or they would notify the TD for ZT violation....only problem my nickname was at the table but I was outside water the garden....no lie :(

 

I could see in the real world this would be a problem or F2F bridge, but on BBO ACBL tournaments there is no interaction between the players and the kibbers. Kibbers can chat amongst themselves and players dont see their chat....only a player can send a msg to a kibber, but the kibber cant respond.

[inquiry]

question is how do you get rid of a kibber from the table. In this particular case the player wanted me to leave and gave me one minute to leave or they would notify the TD for ZT violation....only problem my nickname was at the table but I was outside water the garden....no lie :(

 

I could see in the real world this would be a problem or F2F bridge, but on BBO ACBL tournaments there is no interaction between the players and the kibbers. Kibbers can chat amongst themselves and players dont see their chat....only a player can send a msg to a kibber, but the kibber cant respond.

Well, no one suggested you lied. The player should

 

1) ask you to leave (no need for threats). IF you leave, fine, if not...

2) inform the director of the problem and then...

3) either the director or the player contact a yellow.

 

Item 3 can, generally, resolve the problem. If you are not at your computer, the yellow can quickly, and easily boot you off the system, along with a mail message to tell you (when you log back on) to avoid table of player... XXXXXX

 

I would assume you were away, boot you and when you came back, if you came back and went somewhere elwse, all would be fine. IF however, you rejoined the banned table, I would assume you were trying to cause problems. We have "abuse" to deal with you in the latter case (here "you" is generic).

 

As for kibitzers, let's say that I am some kind of wack job (watch it, this is hypothetical), and I have been kibitzign you and your partner for months. Telling all the kibitzers that you are "too lucky" for real. Say you know this, as both of you have seen my comments when you were kibitzing your partner while they played with someone else. So that having me in the "audience" bugs you so much you can't concentrate on your game. Clearly, as a kibitzer, I have you thinking about me rather than bridge... that would be bad... and you should request that I leave. That seems appropriate.

 

Ben

[Guest Jlall]

Hypothetically, what if the whackjob were actually the player at the table. And they had a whole list of people they didn't want to kibitz them for various reasons, some true, some totally fabricated in his mind. Should they be able to ban these select few, some of whom do not deserve it, from kibbing them? What about if they are not even the host of the table?

[inquiry]

A wackjob with a long list, needs to start his own table, and require permission to kibitz, and to seek out "kibitzer disallowed tourneys".

 

Speaking as a yellow, if I get three such request from one player, they will not be accommondated. Just the same, if I was at a table in a tourney and one player asked all players to "please" leave, I would move to another table.

 

Ben

[mycroft]

You may have noticed I very carefully avoided certain discussions by dealing with it as an ACBL tournament (which it was) rather than a BBO game (which it also was).

 

I happen to think the ACBL regulations are pretty reasonable (you can't bar publicity or security or the people who have to be there; you can't bar everyone; you can bar one person for no reason and others if you can convince the TD of the reason). It deals with the normal problems, and the odd wandering whackjob (and everyone has one of those, don't they?)

 

It doesn't deal well with gang-whackjobbery, and it doesn't seem to deal well with paranoia (but remember, you isn't paranoid if they *are* out to get you). Those few cases - and they are few, but I've had to deal with both sides of it (as a TD, not a player, thankfully) are worth bashing special case rules over, and sometimes, if a reasonable solution can't be found, saying "well, these are the rules. If you don't want to or can't work with them, I'm sorry, but we can't help you." On the other hand, that's also a special case, isn't it?

 

In the MBC, I am very happy to go with a "if you don't like what I want, you (or I) can leave." There's usually 800 clubs to go to at any given time, and you or I can start another one, with our own rules, anytime.

 

Michael.

[pigpenz]

i find it hard to believe that online(here on BBO) that it would bother you if someone were kibbing you! I cant everthink of looking up to see who was actually kibbing me unless it was my wife :P cause you can only carry on a one way converation in a tourney.

[pigpenz]

Hypothetically, what if the whackjob were actually the player at the table. And they had a whole list of people they didn't want to kibitz them for various reasons, some true, some totally fabricated in his mind. Should they be able to ban these select few, some of whom do not deserve it, from kibbing them? What about if they are not even the host of the table?

i think Ben said that you are allowed just like in F2F bridge to bar one kibber....but psychologically if someone bars someone then they have beaten you cause they have gotten into your head.

[luke warm]

i find it hard to believe that online(here on BBO) that it would bother you if someone were kibbing you! I cant everthink of looking up to see who was actually kibbing me unless it was my wife :P cause you can only carry on a one way converation in a tourney.

i know a certain player on bbo who used to attract *dozens* of kibs and i'd guess 90% of them were critical (that's being generous - not the 90% part, the "critical" part) of this person... i could be mistaken, but i believe he finally asked fred or uday or someone to keep kibbers away, or certain kibbers anyway

 

he couldn't see what was being said, but he did have friends

[pigpenz]

i know a certain player on bbo who used to attract *dozens* of kibs and i'd guess 90% of them were critical (that's being generous - not the 90% part, the "critical" part) of this person... i could be mistaken, but i believe he finally asked fred or uday or someone to keep kibbers away, or certain kibbers anyway

 

he couldn't see what was being said, but he did have friends

Gee, what would he do if he were on VuGraph.......look at the things that commentators say about World Class Players's bids :(

 

 

Hey now thats an idea....we could have a VuGraph and follow JLall around in a matchpoint event at the Nationals....whoaaaaaaaa......i bet there would be some interesting comments by the commentators :P

[Guest Jlall]

lol...if you're on vugraph don't worry about what the commentators say. Just play your game. Mistakes will happen, and the commentators will sometimes double dummy you. Can't worry about it.

[luke warm]

there's a difference between actually being on vugraph and in telling everyone you should be

[Walddk]

Some play their best bridge while being watched, others hate it and play awfully, and the rest doesn't care/mind.

 

When your team is on vugraph you have no choice, and that's how it should be. Take it or leave it.

 

Roland

[barmar]

I expect that the CoC of events that are put on Vu-Graph specifically mention that portions will be broadcast this way, so entrants are implicitly agreeing to being on display. They can no more object to it than a professional tennis player could ask to play the Wimbledon finals without an audience. If you're shy, you shouldn't become an expert in a profession or hobby where people want to watch you perform.

 

On the other hand, I'm a little surprised that ACBL's policy applies at all levels. Some casual players may not be comfortable with an audience, and I don't understand why they can't ban all kibbitzers. Does ACBL's policy at least give players lattitude over who is kibbitzed? I know some players who really don't like someone looking over their shoulder, but don't mind if someone kibbitzes their partner or opponents (in both cases they're pretty women, so I prefer to be looking at their faces rather than their usually male partners, so I have no problem with the request).

[McBruce]

I know some players who really don't like someone looking over their shoulder, but don't mind if someone kibbitzes their partner or opponents (in both cases they're pretty women, so I prefer to be looking at their faces rather than their usually male partners, so I have no problem with the request).

Pretty women don't have a bridge reason for being uncomfortable with men looking over their shoulder. However, in kibitzing from the other player's side of the table you should be OK if you confine your glance to their faces... :D

 

In the same vein, I heard a story once about a famous local TD, now retired, called to a table many years before bidding boxes where a pretty young lady in revealing attire told him that her RHO had opened "two boobs." The TD thought for a moment and then replied that in his opinion there was no doubt that this bid was not insufficient. :)