700 each?

[Walddk]

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=skqj95h65dj973ck5&w=sa108632haq7d8652c&e=s4h1043dq4caj108763&s=s7hkj982dak10cq942]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Why did it go so horribly wrong for this EW pair? Feel free to assign more than 100% of the blame, but try to be as gentle as you can. They didn't do this in order to hurt themselves (no, I was not involved).

 

West opened 1♠, North passed, and after 1NT from East, South overcalled 2♥. Now, 2♠ by West and the trouble began. North: double, East: 3♣, South: double, West 3♦, North: double, and all pass.

 

Result: Down 5 and 1400 to NS.

 

Roland

[Free]

West kept running away, instead of trusting his partner's judgement. If p runs to 3♣, you should trust his bid and believe that it's the best contract, even if you're void. West had 3 tricks outside the trumps suit, that should be enough for a good save.

[cherdano]

I don't like blaming games, but giving anything less than 200% (so 2800) for 3♦ seems very tough.

I don't think I like 2♠ with a spade suit that may provide as many tricks in a spade contract as in any other denomination, but it may well be right. 3♣ looks reasonable. But introducing a 4-card suit headed by the 8 at the 3-level after partner has made a strong statement about strain (you don't run to the next level from partner's 6-card suit without good reason) seems to indicate a misconception about this game called bridge: it is actually a partnership game, and sometimes you have to trust.

[Chamaco]

I doid not like 3C by East.

 

West's 2 spades bid, despite a free bid (and a slight overbid), shows only extra length, not extra hcp.

 

A free bid of 3C after pard rebids freely spades (NF) should be constructive here, IMO, some kind of limit hands with, say, some 10 hcp with long clubs (I assume 2/1 GF here).

 

I think that the 3D (bad) rebid by opener should be viewed like that: he assumed that 3C was a forward going move rather than a signoff offer.

 

East has no longer any reason to keep the bidding open after the 2S rebid by opener, no game in sight, no reason to think that 9 tricks in clubs are easier than 8 tricks in spades.

 

But the most important issue is that a 3-level partscore is much more likely to be doubled than a 2-level partscore. This hand risks a huge misfit, so settle for a 6-1 fit before it's too late.

If they double 2S, then run to clubs, and pard won't misinterpret.

[Blofeld]

Chamaco, they had already doubled 2♠.

 

I think East is just about blameless here.

[pbleighton]

You can quibble with 2S and 3C, though I think I would have done both at the table, but 3D gets 100% of the blame. It is telling pd you don't trust him.

 

Peter

[Chamaco]

Chamaco, they had already doubled 2♠.

 

I think East is just about blameless here.

Oh sorry, had not seen the double of 2 spades.

Alright, with no gadgets here available to west (e.g. some lebensohlish tools, good bad 2NT etc), I agree that west's 3D is crazy.

[hotShot]

1♠ not my choice here but it's ok.

- 1NT Well, no choice

2♠ well with this weak hand and weak suit one might have passed

3♣ trying to save your partner, just don't do that

3♦ what on earth is that?

 

3♣ is bad, but 3♦ is even worse. So i put the blame on West :).

[EricK]

East did nothing wrong IMO.

 

West made one dubious action (2♠) and one appaling action (3♦).

 

I make that 150% of the blame to West.

 

Eric

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

no West takes 1400.

West should pass, after East told him,

that the partnership may be better of

in clubs.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

east was fine.

 

West ugg everything starting with 2s on was terrible.

[inquiry]

We should pick on novices like poor WEST, they are suppose to make mistakes. Here he made plenty. Opening 1♠ was not one of them, however. But 2♠ was a hair much and 3♦ was, well, crazy. I am willing to give more than 100% blame ot the pair, but it all goes to West.

[Guest Jlall]

2S completely fine imo. If you don't show your 6th spade now, you may never get a shot. You cant live in fear, and bidding 2S on a minimum opener with 6 spades is standard operating procedure. 3C is fine, especially since I'm sure north doubled viciously. You have a much better hand for clubs than spades and partner isn't ALWAYS void. Heck, you may not even get Xed. 3D is where the trouble started. It was time to bail out after 3C.

 

Surprised no one mentioned easts pass of 3D. He should correct to 3S as partner is likely 6-4. with 6-5 he'd usually bid 3D immediately.

[pclayton]

2♠ and 3♣ (after the x) are fine. West should sit for 3♣. If East has secondary diamonds, I think East should xx 2♠, which should be for rescue (maybe I'm biased seeing the whole hand).

 

So: 500 to the hideous breaks and 900 to East.

[Trpltrbl]

3♦ is to blame for everything.

Up to that I agree with bidding.

But after the double of 2♠ and your pd bid 3♣, for the love of God, you have to pass.

Sounds like a new pair at pdshipdesk looking for pd's.

 

GBB :)

[Fluffy]

I can see all the cards, so it is easy to say 3♣ was our less awful contract, so the blame goes to West :)

[Impact]

Agree with each of the S bids, and the 3C bid is very reasonable after 2S ahs been doubled but:-

 

3D is stark staring nuts and got its just desserts by W est having to play the contract;

 

however, simpliciter, surely East should have reverted to 3S (West did not bid 2D over the doubled 1NT so this is a fairly normal way of bidding 6-4 in the absence of the doubles and had the sequence been forcing-)

 

albeit West has no excuse for removing the 3C bid given the anaemic quality of his S and the necrophiliac tendency of his D!!) -

still East should have given preference unless he determined that partner was operating (and there is a reasonable assumption that that is the only explanation for West's removal of 3C following this sequence ie a psyche of the S bid and now removing to a long strong D suit which he always held...but not on this wavelength!).

 

In one sense only an expert East could/should have envisaged such a possibility - but somehow I doubt that this was the case!

[Codo]

It is allways funny, how sure all of us are, what is the right bid and still we disagree...

I totally agree with justin, 1 Spade, 1 NT and 2 Spade are standard.

I strongly disagree with 3 Club, of course Easts hand play better in clubs, but same could be said about wests hand in Spade.

When you blame West for "not trusting" East, okay, but where did you find East trust in Wests bids? 2 Spade x is much better then 3 Club X and maybe south will even come to your rescue.

 

I do not at all understand Wests 3 Diamond bid. Maybe he really thought, that 3 Club was forwardgoing? My best bet would be, that he thought, that 3 Club was something lwith tolerance for both minors. A point of view, which I would not share, but which is the easiest explanation for 3 Diamond if you don`t believe in a black out.

There is no reason to pass 3 Diamond for East, besides getting confused about the bidding so far.

 

So 800 %o to East for 3 Club and pasing 3 Diamond and 600 %0 for West for 3 Diamond, for a deserved 1400....

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

2 Spade x is much better then 3 Club X

Are you sure about this? In 2S X you will never see the dummy. You will lose 4 diamonds (all NS have to do is play 1 round of trump and they certainly have plaenty of chances to do this) 1 heart (they have to lead them at some point) and 3 or 4 trumps. In clubs, you will lose 1 heart, 2 diamonds, and 2-3 clubs depending on if they get an uppercut or not (they probably will).

 

Trusting partner is fine, but when he's in a very likely 6-1 fit with a huge stack behind him and you have a very good 7 card suit where he can have anywhere between 0-4 card support you don't have to keep him there. He can have his bids and 3C X could be the right spot, even here he has a void and it's still a better spot. What if he had support of any kind?

[zasanya]

Everybody agrees 1♠ is standard.Is it? Don't we need 11 at least?or better quality of suit we are going to rebid if we are brave enough to bid on 10 points?

[Walddk]

It's a clear 1♠ opening to me, and if you think you are too weak for that, at least don't open a weak 2 with two aces and a void.

 

Roland

[barmar]

however, simpliciter, surely East should have reverted to 3S (West did not bid 2D over the doubled 1NT so this is a fairly normal way of bidding 6-4 in the absence of the doubles and had the sequence been forcing-)

1NT was never doubled. South overcalled 2♥, so West never had a chance to bid 2♦. West's bidding suggests either 6-5 shape or that he thought East's 3♣ implied at least secondary support for ♦. But I think if East wanted West to pick a minor, he could have bid 2NT over the double.

[zasanya]

It's a clear 1♠ opening to me, and if you think you are too weak for that, at least don't open a weak 2 with two aces and a void.

 

Of course not 2♠.Believe me I am not as stupid as I look :rolleyes:

But surely pass and then overcall / respond in ♠ is a reasonable option?

[Finch]

We're all agreed on the sanity of the 3D bid.

I agree with 3C once 2S has been doubled.

 

As for the merits of the 2S bid: I used to agree with Justin that it's normal to bid here. But ever since we went for 800 against nothing in 2Sx on roughly the same start to the auction we've been monitoring these hands.

 

Now we think you should only bid 2S with a decent suit. You don't need any more high cards, but you do need a good suit.

 

 

(NV at pairs you can do whatever you fancy, of course)

[Walddk]

As for the merits of the 2S bid: I used to agree with Justin that it's normal to bid here. But ever since we went for 800 against nothing in 2Sx on roughly the same start to the auction we've been monitoring these hands.

 

Now we think you should only bid 2S with a decent suit. You don't need any more high cards, but you do need a good suit.

That's perhaps the whole issue in a nutshell. Did West have an obvious 2♠ in a situation where he didn't have to bid? My guess is that ♥AQ tempted him (2 tricks now), and that he might have forgotten about the quality of his spade suit.

 

I would probably have bid 2♠ myself, but the more I think about, the more I doubt that it's the right strategy in the long run.

 

Roland