mike777 Posted October 7, 2005 Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 Interesting, I generally prefer to have minimum hands for splinters. That makes alot of sense, I prefer that method over opening bids 1h=splinter, etc I guess if my hand was 6043 I would splinter but prefer to slow things down a bit with this 6-4 hand. Again, even more so after seeing so many 2d g/f ugly hands with p/u partners on BBO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 7, 2005 Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 006C - i voted 3D, 3H splinter looks good though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blofeld Posted October 7, 2005 Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 I guess if my hand was 6043 I would splinter but prefer to slow things down a bit with this 6-4 hand. Again, even more so after seeing so many 2d g/f ugly hands with p/u partners on BBO. I think we have to trust that partner is a good bidder here. Of course if the problem is "what do you bid opposite a pick up partner on BBO" then the answers are going to change substantially - I wouldn't be confident that 3♥ would be understood, for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 "Ax, J10xx, Kxxx, Axxx. It's a cinch almost that this hand will play 4S, a contract that IMO should still be reached when right over 3H." Well Winston bid 2D game force with the above hand, a clear 1nt semiforce which partner can pass for me ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 "Ax, J10xx, Kxxx, Axxx. It's a cinch almost that this hand will play 4S, a contract that IMO should still be reached when right over 3H." Well Winston bid 2D game force with the above hand, a clear 1nt semiforce which partner can pass for me :)Yes, and I will fight to the death to defend my right to bid as badly as anyone. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Seems we've been down this road before. I elected to rebid 2 spades (the fact that I prefer that this shows 6 not being the reason). I can then raise diamonds. It's matchpoints! Majors first, especially if P has xx in spades: I have a suit playable opposite a doubleton. Partner's rebid will be very important.If I immediately emphasize diamonds, it is unlikely that we'll be able to stop in 4-spades if that's the better matchpoint contract. Otherwise, at MP, we'll be virtually committed to bidding 6 diamonds (which, as noted in another post, always makes lol). We might still get there should it be right. I guess I stand alone on this approach/ philosophy, but I'm OK with it. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. DHL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Ok, it just seems awful hard to stop in 4s after:1s=2d3h=3s4s=(?; with club ace and spade ace?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 For the third hand is a row, the panel spoke with a single voice. Choosing 3♦ by, once again, 11 to 2 majority. At least this time, the two votes were split between a 2♠ rebid and a 3♥ splinter. Once again, let's start with the minority views. Beto was the odd man out, being the only person willing to rebid ♠ without showing the diamond support. He explained his reasoning as, "2♠. I want to go slow. I dont know if we will play slam or game in here. If we stay low, there are big chances that 4♠ is better than 5♦. We are already forced to game so why dont use the 3-level to discover more about the hand?" Everyone else went for ♦ raises, but only justin choose the splinter, with the following justification. "3H. Not a great matchpoint bid probably, but it describes this hand so well. Good 4+ card diamond support and short hearts. It could be a key bid for avoiding a bad 3N or getting us to a slam. Over 3N I'm going to continue with 4S as my hand seems very geared towards suit play and the spade ten is seductive. So basically I'm giving up on playing 3N, great matchpoint bidding isn't it? lol." Readers should realize that Justin knows that he will be endplayed into bidding again over 3NT but choose 3♥ anyway. Notice how Fred discussed this same issue. FRED: "3D Raising diamonds is mandatory. If I were to rebid 2D then I would never be able to subsequently convince partner that I had 100 honors in his 2/1 suit. For me this is a choice between 3D and 3H (splinter). One of my basic principles of splinters is that, after making a splinter, you should know what to do when partner signs off in game. Here, if I bid 3H and partner bid 3NT, I would have no idea what to do. I won't be thrilled if partner bids 3NT over my 3D either, but at least this way I have left him room to bid 3H if he is so inclined and that will give me a chance to rebid my spades. It is more likely that this deal is about "finding the right game" as opposed to being about "do we belong in 5D or 6D". As far as finding the right game goes, there is not much difference between my x of hearts and my xx of clubs. That is another reason for avoiding a call like 3H that emphasizes one of the side suits over the other. Other of the 3♦ bidders touched on a numbe of issues raised by Fred. Luis: 3d, Planning to rebid 3s over 3h to show the 6-4 hand a direct splinter in hearts won't show the sixth spade and would probably promise some values in clubs. Jeffrey and Frances: 3D. Seems a bit too obvious... but splintering may make it difficult to play in spades (and a low doubleton in the fourth suit is not an ideal holding for a splinter) while if we bid 2S partner will find it hard to imagine 100 honours in diamonds opposite. Fluffy 3♦, it is just systematic. mikeh: 3♦: 2♠ is a close second, since the 6-2 fit will be tough to back into. But partner's rarely picture AQJ10 support if you do not raise immediately. Gerben42 3♦. This shows extra's but although minimum in HCP, you have great support and good shape. ritong: 3♦ ng: 3D. I will have the opportunity to bid Spades again. My 4 card support is very attractive, so I bid what I have. Sergey: 3D - not enough controls for splinter. Over 3H or 3N will bid 4S Finally both richie and roland were not to be hurried... what is it they say about great minds? reisig 3D ..what's the rush? Roland 3D. What's the rush? Yes, I could have splintered with 3H, but I don't want to take up bidding room when we are in a game forcing position. A hand that is much better suited for 2/1 than Standard/Acol/whatever. If we are slam going, I have time to show my heart control later. 3D rather than 3H has the advantage that I can show extra length in spades if partner bids 3H over my raise. 3♦ 11 1003♥ 1 602♠ 1 40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 I'm a little confused by a lot of the comments on this one. I'm pleased that everyone was focused on keeping spades in the picture, but I'm puzzled how a direct diamond raise keeps spades in play while a splinter doesn't. Personally, I think a splinter is clear with this type of hand if you choose to raise diamonds. Reflecting on what Fred stated - I'm pulling 3N to 4♠ since my hand is so oriented to suit play. If I raise diamonds am I really that better placed? If anything, I feel better about leaving it in NT since pard knows about my heart shortness, although maybe there are some unspoken tactical considerations. My 2nd choice is 2♠ with a 3♦ preference over pard's (hoped for) 2N whereby we can intelligently find the 6-2 spade fit. Ben, I also think you were a little too harsh on a splinter in the scoring. Its clear the panel wants to raise diamonds, and only a handful of panelists really considered a splinter (maybe they thought that to splinter, we had to bid FOUR diamonds, especially with the 'whats the rush' reaction by some). At the table, I splintered and pard just spaced out and played me for a big 5-5 (we'd discussed this before but he just forgot - probably because he had a stiff heart himself and the opponents were oddly silent with 11 hearts). I thought it was an interesting problem nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Who am I to dispute such an overwhelming expert opinion in favor of a 3 diamond rebid, so please help me to understand where my reasoning is going astray? If I rebid 3 diamonds after responder's 2D, and responder has a relatively balanced opener that was good enough for a 2/1 response with xx in spades whereby 6D will not have a good play, how do we play in 4S vs. 3NT? My point? If it goes 1S-2D-3D-3S, isn't that showing 3-card (probably) spades support and an opening hand (as opposed to an Hx or xx holding)? Maybe I am missing something, but I am having difficulty seeing how to get to spades on a 6-2 fit unless I rebid 2S to start with. I can then support diamonds including likely pulling 3NT to 4D. Responder should have a reasonable idea of my hand i.e. being 6-4. Keycards including trump queen can then be asked for if necessary or desired. I don't know how to communicate to responder that I have 6 spades unless I rebid them immediately because the auction will be at 3NT or higher by the time it's my bid again if my initial rebid is 3NT, and the spade suit is not good enough to pull to 4S with. (3H by resp after an immediate 3D raise as a checkback for 6 card spade suit would be nice, but many people might interpret 3H as showing concern about clubs, and a 3S rebid by opener at this point might then simply be a default response indicating not much in clubs.) Responder will also know that aces, not kings and queens outside of the two suits are prime, and judge the hand accordingly. I guess I'm wrong, but it just seemed to me that this sequence would allow partner to better decide where the hand should play. DHL ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 This was my thinking, a 3h splinter will get partner thinking of slam, a rebid of 3d will get partner thinking of the best game(strain) first. Therefore over 3d a rebid a 3s bid is still assumed to be a search for best game, not an advanced cuebid. In this example showing heart doubt for 3nt with 2 or 3 spades. If partner rebids 3nt and not 3s we rebid 4s now, choice of game. Of course if partner bids over game level then 3s becomes a slam try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Don, I think that the idea is that you can never show this kind of support for partner unless you show it right away. I don't think that anything you say is necessarily wrong, but I would never bid 2S with such prime support for partner and 6 mediocre spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 as far as i know we have a diamond slam... partner will never believe my support is this good if i don't clue him in... just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 as far as i know we have a diamond slam... partner will never believe my support is this good if i don't clue him in... just my opinion Jimmy makes an important point. I am looking for best game(strain) and giving up on an underpoint slam, unless partner can make some moves. I am trying to show a minimum hand, 54 or 64 if given the chance. Jimmy will get to slam more often on this hand then I will. Again, note I am bidding this way assuming partner has at least 14 hcp while many others are assuming less for partner yet I am not trying for slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 well personally i don't think the splinter is a bad bid at all... neither do i think rebidding spades is bad... i just think it's more important to show that we have a 9 card diamond fit, that's all... i'm never playing this in 3nt (at least i doubt it) anyway the thing i have against the splinter is, it seems to give up on spades... and the thing i have against 2s is, it will be hard to show the great diamond support later.. if partner bids 3h now, i bid 4s (minimum 6/4)... if 3nt, 4s... if 4c, 4s... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 as far as i know we have a diamond slam... partner will never believe my support is this good if i don't clue him in... just my opinionIt galls me but I have to agree with Jimmy..... ;) The first place to look when contemplating slam is the trump suit - if it ain't there you'd better tread carefully. How can the responding hand know that something like: Ax, Axx, 109xxx, AQx is worth a move unless we take strong action. The 3 diamond bidders seem to think they will be able to catch up later; however, I believe partner will never visualize a hand this strong in support of diamonds when the 3 diamond bid could be: KQxxx, K, Kxxx, Kxx. If I splinter and then over 3S bid either 4S or 4D, it is apparent that a lot of my hand is in diamonds and I have a minimum splinter. If partner bids 3N, we must have wasted values in hearts that does not make a spade contract better opposite xx. Looking at this from all sides, I have elevated my bid to the top scoring spot along with all my other bids and declare myself El Capito Perfecto - or just Perf to my friend(s?). :lol: winston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 as far as i know we have a diamond slam... partner will never believe my support is this good if i don't clue him in... just my opinionIt galls me but I have to agree with Jimmy..... ;) The first place to look when contemplating slam is the trump suit - if it ain't there you'd better tread carefully. How can the responding hand know that something like: Ax, Axx, 109xxx, AQx is worth a move unless we take strong action. from all sides, I have elevated my bid to the top scoring spot along with all my other bids and declare myself El Capito Perfecto - or just Perf to my friend(s?). :lol: winston Great example hand, over your 3nt rebid I bid 4s now showing a minimum 6-4 hand unsuitable for 3nt. Now partner will have to use judgement to pass or make slam try. btw I think the "best" hand I can have is KJTxxx=xx=AKxx=x and the "worst" is KJxxxx=xx=AJxx=x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Would you 3 diamond bidders alter your choise at IMPs? Winston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 It seems everyone plays splinter for 3♥, well I don't, so that bid wouldn't come to my mind at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Glad to see I'm not alone in my 2♠ bid.. lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 I hate splintering just to show shortness if my values are concentrated in 2 suits. Of course sometimes the splinter is the only real choice (to set trumps below game), but as a general rule I think the splinter should emphasize values in all the 3 suits, not just in 2 of them. Here I have a perfectly valid alternative to a splinter, 3D (which I prefer to 4D, because I can go slower and learn more of pard's hand), so I'll bid 3D. However, I can see how a 4D bid might work better than 3D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 An additional point is that if you don't bid 3♦, you have lost the advantage of playing 2/1 GF where 2♦ was forcing to game. Playing Acol for instance, 3♦ is passable. This hand is too good for a non-forcing 3♦. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 An additional point is that if you don't bid 3♦, you have lost the advantage of playing 2/1 GF where 2♦ was forcing to game. Playing Acol for instance, 3♦ is passable. This hand is too good for a non-forcing 3♦. Roland Sure, Roland you are right, I forgot to mention I assumed 2/1 GF. Of course if 2D can be an invitational hand, then we need a forcing raise for diamonds and 3D is NF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blofeld Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Not true, Roland. At least in traditional Acol, 2♥ would be non-forcing, so to splinter would take you to 4♥. So you gain a level in both cases. Edit: oh, sorry ; if you were just contrasting 3♦ to 4♦ then in general I agree. Although the 4♦ call ought to show something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Not true, Roland. At least in traditional Acol, 2♥ would be non-forcing, so to splinter would take you to 4♥. So you gain a level in both cases. I think you need to read my post again. 1♠ - 2♦3♦ = NF in Acol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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