Opinions please

[Winstonm]

[hv=s=sa4hak7d53ckq10853]133|100|Like most who play strong 15-17 NT, you have agreed that 2236 shape with a minor is certainly eligible to be opened 1N; however, do you further refine this to HCP only or do playing tricks come into play in the decision. Do you open both of these hands 1N, one of them, or neither. What are your reasons?[/hv]

 

 

[hv=s=sa4hak7d53ckq10853]133|100|Like most who play strong 15-17 NT, you have agreed that 2236 shape with a minor is certainly eligible to be opened 1N; however, do you further refine this to HCP only or do playing tricks come into play in the decision. Do you open both of these hands 1N, one of them, or neither. What are your reasons?[/hv]

[mike777]

1) prefer 1club then 3clubs but very close.

2) 1nt. easy./

[han]

I think that the playing strength of the first is too high. I would rather open 1C and rebid 2NT. Rebidding 3C is also possible, this is a good hand for a club slam.

 

The second seems fine.

 

I frequently upgrade 13 (yes, 13) and 14 pointers with good 6-card minors.

[Guest Jlall]

It seems obvious to me that playing strength should matter. When you open 1N with this hand, youre saying your hand is roughly the equivalent of a 15-17 balanced hand.

 

Your first hand is wayyyy stronger than your average 15-17. 2N is closer. You can make game opp xxx xxx xxxx Axx. That's pretty impressive. Your hand is suit oriented, you don't want to play from your side, AND you have a good rebid (1C then 3C). I would open 1C.

 

Hand 2. Perfect! First, it's very NTy, second it's right on evaluation, third if you open 1C then rebid 2C youre underbidding, and if you open 1C and rebid 3C you are sick. Which brings me to my point.

 

If I can open 1C and rebid 3C comfortably on both suit quality and values, then I will open 1C. Otherwise I will open 1N.

[cherdano]

I don't think I have very strong opinions on bidding style, but I would definitely not be happy if my partner opened hand 1 with 1NT. That one screams for suit play!

I would definitely open the second hand 1NT but I wouldn't mind a 1♣ opening.

 

Arend

[pclayton]

No way I would on hand 1 - this hand's a monster.

 

Hand 2 is fine for 1N - a few tenaces, strong doubletons and marginal suit. This is exactly what a 15-17 1N opening should like with a 6 card minor.

 

By the way if you open 1♣ on the 2nd, what is your rebid please?

[card_judge]

Makes me glad I am playing Precision. Hands down 1♣ both hands. ;)

[beatrix45]

<_< Playing SAYC I would open one club on the first hand and one NT with the second hand. My reason is the quality of my club suit. With the first hand I have an easy 3♣ rebid. The club suit in the second hand is too ratty, plus it has good tenaces.

[Winstonm]

[hv=s=sa3hak5d86ck109642]133|100|Now, what do you open with this one?[/hv]

[Blofeld]

Now that looks like 1NT again.

[cherdano]

Now that looks like 1NT again.

Not to me.

[Walddk]

[hv=s=sa3hak5d86ck109642]133|100|Now, what do you open with this one?[/hv]

I would upgrade it to 1NT, but I do not mind 1♣ followed by 2♣, unless the response is 1♥; then I prefer a raise to 2♥.

 

The previous two hands: 1) 1♣ followed by 3♣ - 2) 1NT.

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

[hv=s=sa3hak5d86ck109642]133|100|Now, what do you open with this one?[/hv]

1N for me too, just so mikeh can disagree :) This is my style, and the hand is certianly worth it on playing strength. Wouldn't fault 1C-2C at all.

[Chamaco]

Hand 1 has 2 features typical of suit oriented hands:

 

1) good suit

 

2) majority of honors are AK's

 

 

Therefore I shall open 1C and reverse at a 2nd round

 

 

--------------------

 

Hand 2 can instead be legitimately treated as a (semi)balanced hand, IMO, so I'll open 1NT

[Chamaco]

[hv=s=sa3hak5d86ck109642]133|100|Now, what do you open with this one?[/hv]

if pard is unpassed hand I'll open 1C and rebid 2c.

 

If pard is a passed hand, I'll open 1NT.

[mike777]

[hv=s=sa3hak5d86ck109642]133|100|Now, what do you open with this one?[/hv]

if pard is unpassed hand I'll open 1C and rebid 2c.

 

If pard is a passed hand, I'll open 1NT.

1nt easy, next hand.

[Fluffy]

1) prefer 1club then 3clubs but very close.

2) 1nt. easy./

This is my opinion also

[Fluffy]

[hv=s=sa3hak5d86ck109642]133|100|Now, what do you open with this one?[/hv]

1♣ opening ;), followed by 2♣ unless partner bids 1♥, then I would try 1NT better.

[Blofeld]

I don't understand the logic behind that, Fluffy. If partner bids 1♥, surely your hand looks more suited to suit play than if he bids anything else? And it makes your hand better, so doesn't 1NT become a big underbid?

[Winstonm]

Although I agree that 1N is certainly acceptable, I'm not sure I agree that it is the best bid.

 

When one opens 1N, overall HCP and texture is still the best way for responder to determine a pass, a try for game, or a game bid. Hands with considerable sources of tricks are not factored into this equation. As we would like to reach most games at imps that are >40%, it seems that showing the trick source is more important that anything else in this hand.

 

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=s1064h832da1042ca73&s=sa3hak5d86ck109642]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I cannot bring myself to raise a 1N opening here; however, I can easily raise a 2C over 1D rebid. It seems to me that we all agree that primes and length with a good suit makes a hand too good for 1N; if we extend that logic, isn't this hand either too good or too bad for 1N depending solely on partner's club holding? How can partner ever know that QJ2 of clubs makes the NT hand worth 8 tricks unless the club suit is emphasized?

 

Winston

[Finch]

It seems obvious to me that playing strength should matter. When you open 1N with this hand, youre saying your hand is roughly the equivalent of a 15-17 balanced hand.

 

Your first hand is wayyyy stronger than your average 15-17. 2N is closer. You can make game opp xxx xxx xxxx Axx. That's pretty impressive. Your hand is suit oriented, you don't want to play from your side, AND you have a good rebid (1C then 3C). I would open 1C.

You seem to be saying that 1C followed by 3C shows a much stronger hand than than a 1NT opening. I've always thought of it as showing a good 15-18 HCP (obviously depending on distribution etc), which is only fractionally stronger.

 

A 3C rebid isn't forcing.

 

On hand 1 I'd probably open 1C and rebid 2NT.

[mike777]

Although I agree that 1N is certainly acceptable, I'm not sure I agree that it is the best bid.

 

When one opens 1N, overall HCP and texture is still the best way for responder to determine a pass, a try for game, or a game bid.  Hands with considerable sources of tricks are not factored into this equation.  As we would like to reach most games at imps that are >40%, it seems that showing the trick source is more important that anything else in this hand.

 

Dealer: East Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ 1064 ♥ 832 ♦ A1042 ♣ A73 ♠ A3 ♥ AK5 ♦ 86 ♣ K109642

 

I cannot bring myself to raise a 1N opening here; however, I can easily raise a 2C over 1D rebid.  It seems to me that we all agree that primes and length with a good suit makes a hand too good for 1N; if we extend that logic, isn't this hand either too good or too bad for 1N depending solely on partner's club holding?  How can partner ever know that QJ2 of clubs makes the NT hand worth 8 tricks unless the club suit is emphasized?

 

Winston

1) 22 hcp game

2) Responder has terrible shape 3343

3) You must pick up club suit 2-2? or if honour drops do you finesse?

 

If you think 1nt is easy opener here, as I do, you must decide if you gain more than you lose from this bid.

[mikeh]

[hv=s=sa3hak5d86ck109642]133|100|Now, what do you open with this one?[/hv]

1N for me too, just so mikeh can disagree :) This is my style, and the hand is certianly worth it on playing strength. Wouldn't fault 1C-2C at all.

I hate being predictable.....not ;) I like the fact that my partners can trust my constructive bidding as being descriptive.

 

Let's take a somewhat strained holding for partner: KQxx Qxx xx Axxx.

 

Open 1N and guess where you play

 

Open 1♣ and rebid 2♣ and you may reach 5♣ or not (I'd expect to reach it most of the time), but I'm winning mps or imps against all of you 1N hand-hogs anyway.

 

Change the hand to KQxxx Qxxx x AQx and where are you guys playing?

 

Yes, I suppose you can construct hands on which 1N wins, but it is going to be much tougher... after all, 1♣ 2♣ is a sequence that actually includes this hand in its text-book definition ;)

 

I have found, through bitter experience, that partners do better when you describe your hand, rather than try to maximize your chances of being declarer :)

[Guest Jlall]

You seem to be saying that 1C followed by 3C shows a much stronger hand than than a 1NT opening.

To me it shows abotu 15-18 HCP WITH a long good suit or just a lot of tricks.

 

so

 

Ax

AKx

xx

KQTxxx

 

or

 

Ax

xxx

x

AKQxxxx

 

are classic hands. These are much stronger to me than 1N openers usually are.

[Fluffy]

I don't understand the logic behind that, Fluffy. If partner bids 1♥, surely your hand looks more suited to suit play than if he bids anything else? And it makes your hand better, so doesn't 1NT become a big underbid?

Yeah :rolleyes:, but playing on a 4-3 fit where I have concentrtated values on the 3 cards is wrong. I wanna give partenr the chance to rebid his 5 card suit.