nine clubs after partners preempt

[plaur]

[hv=v=b&s=sxhxxdxckqj987432]133|100|Scoring: MP

partner dealt and opened 3♦[/hv]

 

From last night in my local club. About 15 tables play the same hand. Partner is a solid preempter. He will have at least 7 good ♦'s.

 

What would you bid?

 

EDIT: partner could open 3NT with AKQxxxx in ♦'s and no side K or A

[mr1303]

3NT. Gambling..... ;)

 

If doubled, I bid 4NT, then 5C.

 

I can see no defence whatsover to 4 of a major, and if partner doesn't have the A of diamonds we have little defence to 6 either. I find that being tricky on hands like this may get them into a doubling rhythm, giving us a good save.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

pass.

 

You will go down -3 in 5C, and you wont convince

partner below 5C, that you want to play clubs.

 

So what do you gain?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

3NT. Gambling..... ;)

 

If doubled, I bid 4NT, then 5C.

 

I can see no defence whatsover to 4 of a major, and if partner doesn't have the A of diamonds we have little defence to 6 either. I find that being tricky on hands like this may get them into a doubling rhythm, giving us a good save.

You think -800 is a good save, if they only bid game?

 

Marlowe

[joker_gib]

Pass

 

I don't preempt on preempts and everything else should be interpreted as slam oriented !

 

Alain

[card_judge]

Interesting hand for sure. Gambling 3NT = not a fan. What are the vulnerabilities? That will sway my decision if the opps jump in someway.

 

If partner has the hand you describe AND and an outside honor what prevented an opening 1♦? This hand screams for a major suit opening lead due to the bidding especially, if you bid any amount of ♣'s.

 

With that said you loose 1-♣, 1-♥ & 2-♥'s. Who knows the opps lead 2-♠ and you just might make 5♣.

 

So I would go against the norm on this one and play 5♣ doubled or undoubled. As one of the people here on BBO say 50-50-90 Rule = if you have a 50-50 chance then 90% of the time you will get it wrong ~ that also works for the opposition as well.

[whereagles]

Hum.. interesting hand. There is a good chance opps have a slam here. If you keep on bidding here, it is very likely that opps, under pressure, bid a slam that rates to make. Probably better to pass and see what happens. Maybe the stop short of slam, maybe they bid slam and it goes 1 down on a diamond ruff. Who knows?

 

Something else to note: I assume RHO passed. If so, it's a pretty good bet it goes

 

3♦ pass pass dbl, OR

3♦ pass pass 4♦

 

in which case you're on the lead against opps' slam. The diamond lead is clear-cut from you side, so no need to fear pard might not lead the ace of diamonds for your ruff.

[pbleighton]

Pass or 5C could be right. 5C for me - given a 50-50 choice I would rather be in game.

 

Peter

[Blofeld]

I think I'd probably try 3NT. Don't mind pass or 5♣.

[Guest Jlall]

Pass? 3N? I really don't get it....

 

3N: Ugh. Bids like this may work against weak opponents but they are just anti preemptive against a good player. You give him a 4D cue and also a X. He can X then bid 4M or he can just bid 4M directly to differentiate strengths. He will not be fooled, and since you have 6 HCP opposite a preempt there is a very very good chance the opps will have enough firepower to know to bid. This is what's called a "baby" psyche and anyone who's played longer than 2 months will recognize it. It is possible that they have something like 13 opp 13 and you steal the pot, but even then down 7 is quite possible. Sorry, I don't understand the appeal of this bid.

 

Pass: We do have NINE clubs, are we really never going to take a call? If the opps bid 4 of a major, will we not be tempted to bid 5C? I guess you guys have a lot of discipline but I could never see passing with 9 solid missing the ace. There's a good chance they will find the right contract and have room to explore for slam. There's a good chance we should be saving.

 

5C: What I am always going to be bidding anyways. If we go for 800, don't you think they have a slam? If you want to argue the field wont bid their slam, I will argue everyone in the room will be bidding 5C with NINE of them. If pard does produce the DA they wont have a slam but we'll only go for 500. This will jam their auction and make it hard for them to determine what strain and level to play.

 

Bridge is a tough game, but with 1 loser 9 card suits and no defense I really think we just need to bid that suit, and lots of it.

[pigpenz]

whats wrong with 4♠ as long as we want to muddy up the waters we always have safe landing spot. :P

[Guest Jlall]

whats wrong with 4♠ as long as we want to muddy up the waters we always have safe landing spot. :P

Down 7 would not be a good result ;)

[Al_U_Card]

My rule for not tabling an 8 card suit as dummy applies more so to 9 cards. 5C is the bid that is required (at least) and I might be thinking about 6 (down 4 dbld for 1100 when their vul slam brings in 1430 or even 1460) When your choice is clear, make'em guess last.

[mikeh]

3N stinks. Put it this way: if you bid 3N and it goes all pass (which has to be one of the possibilities you are hoping for), will you be happy?

 

Especially when partner tables AKxxxxx of ♦?

 

And, as Justin points out, most good opps sitting over your 3N will know what to do with the good major-suited hand they actually hold.

 

OTOH, what are the chances of 5♣ working?

 

Well, it seems to me that 3 things could happen:

 

1.. they pass: now you are really happy, but this is most unlikely

 

2. they double: you are going 500 (good) or 800 (maybe good, maybe a small loss)

 

3. they bid (whether after doubling or not). Here, again, there are several outcimes, some good and some bad.

 

They may stop in 5M, cold for 6

 

They may stop in 5M, making

 

They may reach 6 down

 

They may reach 6 making

 

I doubt that they will bid a slam if off the ♦ Ace, unless one of them has a stiff (of course, they may well be cold for 6N, but I doubt they are bidding that slam).

 

5♣ seems to me to be a break-even bid, in that the upsides seem to balance the downsides.

 

But the deciding factor for me is that passing makes their life way too easy, and 5♣, even when wrong, muddies the waters. Put another way: as your opp, I'd appreciate a pass (or 4♣ or 3N) but I would not like 5♣

[P_Marlowe]

Pass? 3N? I really don't get it....

 

<snip>

 

5C: What I am always going to be bidding anyways. If we go for 800, don't you think they have a slam? If you want to argue the field wont bid their slam, I will argue everyone in the room will be bidding 5C with NINE of them. If pard does produce the DA they wont have a slam but we'll only go for 500. This will jam their auction and make it hard for them to determine what strain and level to play.

 

Bridge is a tough game, but with 1 loser 9 card suits and no defense I really think we just need to bid that suit, and lots of it.

Hi,

 

the main problem of course is, that a direct 5C bid aint natural,

it is probably a splinter aggreeing diamonds.

Nothing else makes remotely sense, you dont bid a preempt

opposite a preempt, and if you cater for 9 card suits, ... well

I dont, it would kill my limited memory space.

 

If you really want to play 5C, you need to

bid 4C, natural and forcing and repeat 5C.

 

Of course, if you happen to play 4C as RKCB

for diamonds (... specialiced form, since 3 Key cards

are not possible), you cant even bid 4C.

 

Pass, and bid later, if you really believe 5C is better.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Guest Jlall]

Hi,

 

the main problem of course is, that a direct 5C bid,

is a splinter aggreeing diamonds.

News to me. Is 3D p 4H also a splinter? I have never heard of this, and see no reason why we cannot place the contract opposite a preempt. It is true we do not preempt OVER a preempt (when the opponents preempt) but when partner preempts we are well placed to jump to what we feel is the right contract and apply the maximum pressure on the opponents.

[inquiry]

the main problem of course is, that a direct 5C bid aint natural, it is probably a splinter aggreeing diamonds.

Well, I find this hard to believe. How is the opening preempter suppose to evaluate his major holdings after 3♦ and a 5♣ preempt. I mean, really do we expect him to have controls in both? Either? Five clubs has to be to play, as there is no possible upside for 5♣ as splinter. If you wanted to argue that 5♣ was "last train" looking for six with "outstanding" diamonds, I might buy that... but that is a very specific agreement that would require a lot of prior agreement.

[mikeh]

the main problem of course is, that a direct 5C bid aint natural,

it is probably a splinter aggreeing diamonds.

Nothing else makes remotely sense (snipped),

Of course, if you happen to play 4C as RKCB

for diamonds (... specialiced form, since 3 Key cards

are not possible), you cant even bid 4C.

 

One reason (amongst others) to play 5♣ as natural is that many play 4♣ as keycard.... you have to have SOME way of bidding ♣ :rolleyes:

 

While I suppose it is possible to use 5♣ as a splinter, one has to ask why? What kind of hand would you be looking at, where keycard or a natural, forcing major suit bid is inappropriate? The purpose of a splinter is to encourage partner to upgrade holdings in the side suits (especially Aces and Kings) and to downgrade secondary honours in the splinter suit. Partner opened 3♦. While I do not use rigid rules, such as denying outside cards, when I preempt, the reality is that opener will rarely hold cards that allow for intelligent action opossite a splinter.

 

OTOH, you will, once in a while, hold a self-sufficient ♣ suit, and it behooves you to have some way of showing it, while obstructing the opps.

 

So for me, the use of 5♣ as a splinter is less helpful than as natural.

[sceptic]

I may have a lot to learn, but I think 6 clubs is not that bad, they have got to have something in majors and I would not be suprised if it was not slam

 

I would push them to slam I cant defend a game in majors but a slam may go down 1

 

I think anyone who bids 3nt is plain bonkers

[scoob]

i am inclined to bid each of their majors at least once this auction; i'll start with 3♠, then 4♥, pulling doubles of either and compete as high as 6♣/♦

[plaur]

Hi,

 

the main problem of course is, that a direct 5C bid,

is a splinter aggreeing diamonds.

News to me. Is 3D p 4H also a splinter? I have never heard of this, and see no reason why we cannot place the contract opposite a preempt. It is true we do not preempt OVER a preempt (when the opponents preempt) but when partner preempts we are well placed to jump to what we feel is the right contract and apply the maximum pressure on the opponents.

My feelings too. When partner preempts you can set the contract. My partner didnt agree.

 

I bid 5♣ and the bidding went:

3♦ - pass - 5♣ - X

5♦ - pass - pass - X

all pass.

 

5♦ X was -800. 5♣ X would have been -500. They had 650 on but not more on a ♦ lead.

 

Partner didnt belive i had clubs so i tabled a zero trick 9 card suit :-(

[Free]

I'd also rather psych before bidding my suit. 4♠ seems most clear: if I run away after a Dbl, then it means I don't have that suit :) 3♠ might be too confusing for partner (what if it goes 3♦-p-3♠-p;4♠-Dbl-5♣... it's not easy). But in the end I'll probably play 5♣ anyway but create some action on the way ;) . Pass is the only alternative to getting to 5♣, 3NT is imo insane since I don't have a single trick...