Double truble again

[Flame]

1♠ (2♣) P (P)

2♠ (3♣) P (P)

D

 

I think this one should be penalty, opener described his hand and if he has more he can just bid 3D or 3H to show 6-4. If you think the same then how bout if we change spades to hearts now opener with good 6 hearts and 4 spades, might want to double for t.o. Or what if we change the overcaller suit to diamonds or hearts, now opener might want to bid the lower ranking suit but cant.

i passed this one when overcall suit was diamonds, and opener spades, partner ment t.o with 4 clubs, and we lost alot, since the double is before the overcaller maybe playing penalty is old fashion and wrong, what do you think ?

[whereagles]

Agree it should be penalty. He who could have doubled for take-out before cannot be doubling for take-out now. Expect a 6322 with 16-17 hcp and 1 or 2 club tricks.

[Guest Jlall]

I would think it just showed extra offense, good defense and takeout oriented, however not a lot of support for the red suits (else immed X). Basically you're inviting a 3S or a pass, but pard can bid 3 of a red suit is too with a long suit.

 

Axxxxxx AJx AQ x would make sense to me.

AKT9xx Ax AJx xx is also reasonable (depending on vul/form of scoring etc).

 

etc.

[mikeh]

For me, this is primarily takeout, altho I have had trouble coming up with a plausible hand:

 

6331, KQJxxx Axx AQx x

(I think I would reopen with double and then bid 2♠ on this)

 

Or AQJxxx Axx Axx x

(same: I doubt I have this hand)

 

or AJxxxxx Axx AQ x

 

Partner is permitted to pass but encouraged to bid.

 

An unusual sequence: if pure penalty, it is very difficult to undestand why I bid 2♠. Presumably a pure penalty double here has length and strength in both black suits. Responder lacked the values for a negative double of 2♣ and has no fit for me. So what kind of hand can I have to reopen 2♣, when I think that I can beat 3♣ 2 tricks or more? (Please do not tell me that I make penalty doubles for one trick sets... unless they are red and we are playing mps.. conditions were not specified)

 

And unusual if I have interest in the reds: why not reopen with a double of 2♣?

 

 

So I opt for a hand with at least 6♠ and some defence but a hand that the person whose place I took thought was not quite right for a double of 2♣ followed by a rebid of 2♠ should partner pull. You'll have to ask that person what the hand looks like when he or she comes back :D

[Guest Jlall]

or AJxxxxx Axx AQ x

hmm you even come up with the same example hands as me (almost). I'm used to people arguing with me, not agreeing, please cease and desist :D

[Chamaco]

I would take the double as generally cardshowing, say some (15+)16-17 hcp with long spades, short(ish) clubs, no clear direction, typically 6322.

[pclayton]

This sequence is very similar to an auction I posted last week:

 

1♣ - 1♠ - p - p

2♣ - 2♠ - p - p

3♣ - dbl

 

Which I suggested to be cooperative in nature rather than takeout. I see no dissimilarity between this sequence and the subject auction.

[pigpenz]

I would take it as optional, saying partner i have extras either bid or sit

[mikeh]

This sequence is very similar to an auction I posted last week:

 

1♣ - 1♠ - p - p

2♣ - 2♠ - p - p

3♣ - dbl

 

Which I suggested to be cooperative in nature rather than takeout. I see no dissimilarity between this sequence and the subject auction.

There is an enormous difference, IMHO.

 

When doubling behind the 3♣ bidder, I would characterize the double as primarily penalty: I would expect a defensive hand with at least one and possibly 2 trump tricks (with other meanings, I would have overcalled and doubled at my second turn)

 

When doubling in front of the bidder, I am very unlikely to hold trump tricks: compare the trick taking potential of KJx when in front and when behind the bidder.

 

So for me the posted hand double is primarily takeout, while your example is primarily penalty (altho both can be taken out or left in by partner, who will presumably look at his hand first :D )

[000002]

I would take it as optional, saying partner i have extras either bid or sit

agree.something like:

 

AXXXXXX

AK

XX

AX

[Fluffy]

Very strong, penalty oriented, only to be taken out with a 7 card suit or ♠ support.

[Guest Jlall]

Very strong

How strong can you be when you balance with just 2S?

[bridge2k]

Optinal. Some extra, good defence values. with support on other H+D.

[Fluffy]

Very strong

How strong can you be when you balance with just 2S?

When your strenght is in ♣s... a lot