respect? normal behavior?

[rwylee]

I helped my friend who is a new TD in a pair tour. There had been ongoing argument between two pairs. Then, IN B8, they were playing 7!hX, after the lead, declarer asked opps if that was okay if he claimed black suit squeeze. However, he did not show his hand and claim, he just asked. I told him to behave and respect his opps. He questioned me if I was the director, and said my behavior was very strange. I told him if you wanted to claim, you should show your hand and do so, not just ask or mock the opps.

I am wondering if I was right, or people can ask questions like that before they show their hands? Thanks!

 

 

Rex

[Elianna]

You are correct, he can't ask questions like that (it will tell him the position of the cards, etc, and he might then try a different line knowing that it's off).

 

I take it that since there was already back and forth between the players, you previously told them not to say anything to each other? If so, I wouldn't get into the argument with the guy about it, I would (in f2f at least) impose a procedural penalty. If you don't follow up with threats, what motivation do you give others to follow what you say? (And yes, I do treat bridge players like my tenth grade students ;) )

 

I know that you can't give PP in BBO, so I don't know what I'd do there. My only real advice is to not get into an argument. You'll never win (ie, they'll never stop arguing).

[kfgauss]

You are correct, he can't ask questions like that (it will tell him the position of the cards, etc, and he might then try a different line knowing that it's off).

 

I take it that since there was already back and forth between the players, you previously told them not to say anything to each other? If so, I wouldn't get into the argument with the guy about it, I would (in f2f at least) impose a procedural penalty. If you don't follow up with threats, what motivation do you give others to follow what you say? (And yes, I do treat bridge players like my tenth grade students ;) )

 

I know that you can't give PP in BBO, so I don't know what I'd do there. My only real advice is to not get into an argument. You'll never win (ie, they'll never stop arguing).

The question "is it ok if I claim on a squeeze" seems to be a reasonable one, if not entirely supported by the laws (which I don't know in this case). If your opponents refuse, you don't seem to gain any information other than something like the fact that they don't want to have to think through a squeeze and check that it works. It seems potentially irritating to the opponents if you claim and they don't want to think about it and you have to get the director to come over and think through the squeeze, so asking them first seems like a kindness.

 

BBO is of course different from live bridge in that you can claim and show all your cards to the opponents while not seeing anything yourself, so perhaps on BBO when asking such questions you should always show the opps all the cards.

 

Andy

[helene_t]

Maybe it's not so practical to tell a player to "behave and respect his opps". Just tell him that he can't ask such a question and tell opps that they must not answer. He must either claim or play on.

[Finch]

According to the Laws, I don't think you can say "can I claim on a squeeze"?

But in practice, I see no reason not to. If you don't know your opponents, and you have a suitable claim, why not say "I can claim this on a squeeze, but would you prefer me to play on"? Some people don't like such claims, because they don't understand how to play a squeeze and they won't understand the claim. It's much better to play it out against such opponents rather than get them upset via an acrimonious claim. Others would be irritated at you playing it out.

 

I tend to play things out if I don't have a claim anyone at my local club would understand. This leads to some odd conversations:

 

Last year in the trials I had the following conversation with my RHO (a strong player) while I was playing 3NT

 

Him: Do you have an opening bid?

Me: Yes

Him: My partner's squeezed for 11 then

[Clinch]

Youknow more about the specific context, but I don't think that asking whether it's ok to claim on a squeeze is necessarily mocking the opponents. I can see two possibilities - it was serious (the only chance) or it was a mild joke (along the lines of "I make this if the king-queen of trumps are singleton").

 

Especially in a timed tournament, it makes sense to finish the hand quickly. This does somewhat backfire if the opps continually refuse the claim, but that's life.

 

I have seen many occasions in online bridge where declarer asks the position of a particular card to see if a finesse will work, then claims accordingly. Asking about a squeeze is a little more obscure, but seems ok to me dependent on the circumstances.

 

Peter.

New York, NY.

[Guest Jlall]

When I was about 12, I claimed on a double squeeze against 2 little old ladies. I wish I could say this was to speed up the game, but of course I was just showing off. The director was called, and about 10 minutes later the claim was accepted. Had I played it out, it would have taken 2 minutes (and thats including the invariable 1 minute tank by the victim when you play the squeeze card). That taught me a lesson about claiming on squeezes...

 

If you are in a high level game, claiming on squeezes is fine. Often on BBO or in RL someone will say "heart king with the long diamond?" and then claim the appropriate amount. Against 99 % of opps this is not recommended though, and imo is usually more to show off than for any other reason.

[epeeist]

I helped my friend who is a new TD in a pair tour. There had been ongoing argument between two pairs. Then, IN B8, they were playing 7!hX, after the lead, declarer asked opps if that was okay if he claimed black suit squeeze. However, he did not show his hand and claim, he just asked. I told him to behave and respect his opps. He questioned me if I was the director, and said my behavior was very strange. I told him if you wanted to claim, you should show your hand and do so, not just ask or mock the opps.

I am wondering if I was right, or people can ask questions like that before they show their hands? Thanks!

 

 

Rex

I note first, you state "There had been ongoing argument between two pairs." But without more, the question seems silly, but not intended to be sarcastic.

 

Anyway, if as a defender I received a question like that I'd probably reply something like "Make any claim you want, when I see your cards I'll decide". Or if I was annoyed "if you have a claim, make it, otherwise play". Unless maybe I was playing against a "star", I would make any opponent play it out for two reasons. First, the time it would take me to analyze the squeeze means it would probably be faster to play. Second, even if there was a squeeze who's to say that declarer is as skilled as he or she claims?

 

If I were the declarer, and if I was capable of analyzing a squeeze on the opening lead, and if for some reason I was so certain that it would work or so short of time that I needed to claim, I wouldn't ask; I'd press the claim button and type in the explanation box "black suit squeeze" or whatever.

 

So while the declarer's question seems odd, it doesn't seem, on its own, to be either rude (taunting) or inappropriate. Silly though, and a waste of time, the player should just claim, showing his or her cards.

[pigpenz]

When I was about 12, I claimed on a double squeeze against 2 little old ladies. I wish I could say this was to speed up the game, but of course I was just showing off. The director was called, and about 10 minutes later the claim was accepted. Had I played it out, it would have taken 2 minutes (and thats including the invariable 1 minute tank by the victim when you play the squeeze card). That taught me a lesson about claiming on squeezes...

 

If you are in a high level game, claiming on squeezes is fine. Often on BBO or in RL someone will say "heart king with the long diamond?" and then claim the appropriate amount. Against 99 % of opps this is not recommended though, and imo is usually more to show off than for any other reason.

often on BBO people have a hard time with the simple claims like dummys good etc. But have you ever seen a claim where you were dummy and kibbing and even you werent sure it was good? I have only once and i still had to stop and think about it the next day, that is when you know your partner is good :D

[candybar]

In f2f bridge, if someone asked, "Can I claim on a squeeze", I would treat it as a claim. Play ceases, declarer faces his cards, explains his line of play, and if he is correct, the claim is accepted; if not, he loses.

 

I see no reason why it should be different in online bridge. Asking who holds a king is a reasonable question to save time, but certainly should indicate that the finesse is being taken. If the opponents answered the question and then the declarer played out the hand using the information to avoid the finesse, I'd boot him from the tourney and report him to abuse.

 

If a declarer claims on a squeeze by asking the opponents if he can, it might be because he doesn't know for sure. Or he might be asking if the opponents understand a squeeze. I wouldn't assume either case, I'd just instruct him to claim, let the opponents see his cards, and then they can decide in a normal manner. If they don't understand the squeeze, they can reject and see it played out.

 

However, if they reject it, I'd instruct him that he MUST follow the line of play that he stated. If he does not, I'd report him, and adjust the score.

 

I have twice seen cases online where the declarer claimed stating a line of play and then when the claim was rejected, did something else. In both those cases, the TD did nothing about it. Once a line of play is stated, such as "black suit squeeze", declarer has no choice about how he plays the hand.

[barmar]

I see no reason why it should be different in online bridge. Asking who holds a king is a reasonable question to save time, but certainly should indicate that the finesse is being taken.

In f2f bridge, you can say "I'm going to finesse, and I make an overtrick if the finesse works." In online bridge, the software forces you to state the exact number of tricks you expect to take when claiming, so the only way to make a provisional claim like this is to ask first.

 

The stars do it all the time when playing amongst themselves, and if I were playing with friends I'm sure everyone would understand, but I would never presume to do it when playing against randoms. There's simply too much opportunity for misunderstanding. Take the hook and *then* claim.

[rwylee]

Thanks for the answers and advices!

 

I agree S is a strong player and did read the distribution correctly. W's 1s overcall and X 7h showed his power. So most people agree it is okay to ask that question, but he also needs to show his cards, and the declarer has to follow the line to play if his claim was rejected. I know how to handle the similar situation next time, Thanks again! ;)

[han]

In my opinion this is an example of a director who takes their task too seriously and has no idea what was going on. Incidentally, I was the player who made the claim without showing the cards.

 

This was a puzzle tournament, and it was great fun. Dummy came down and it was immediately clear that the hand would be made with a black suit squeeze, there was no other possible line. Either the LHO had the club king and the hand would be made, or RHO had the club king and I would go down. Since it was a puzzle tournament, LHO certainly had the king. So after trick 1 was not ruffed I said "opponents, I think that I will make this hand on a black suit squeeze, would you like me to claim or play it out". The opponents said "play" so I played it exactly as I said and made the hand on a black suit squeeze.

 

Elianna's suggestion is clearly wrong, I did not take advantage of the opponents rejection, I played it exactly like I said. Only if I had changed my mind THEN should she accuse me of cheating. The opponents profiles said that they were experts and this was the leading table in the tournament so there was some remote chance that they would understand what a black suit squeeze was.

 

I didn't think that my question was disrespectful. I don't think that the opponents thought it was disrespectful (but I could be wrong, who knows what they thought). The director was not called. I found it very strange that the director felt it necessary to rebuke me, so I told him/her.

 

The earlier discussion was not disrespectful either. One of the opponents made a highly questionable call that suggested that it was a convention that should have been alerted (the call was 2H over my 1NT opening and the bidder had better spades than hearts, so it looked like DONT). I called the director and asked him/her to look at it. The opponents explained that they were a pick-up partnership and that they were just trying to make the best of it. I said, ok, no problem then, and we moved on to the next hand.

 

The fact that this discussion is mentioned here shows that the poster who started this thread is not familiar with some bridge customs. There was nothing unpleasant about this director call and I suspect that the director is a fairly new player.

[Elianna]

Elianna's suggestion is clearly wrong, I did not take advantage of the opponents rejection, I played it exactly like I said. Only if I had changed my mind THEN should she accuse me of cheating.

I didn't say that "anyone who asks that question is likely cheating", I said that question is not technically allowable, because it leaves open the possibility of cheating. There is a difference in nuance.

 

Maybe there wasn't any animosity previously, I definitely wasn't there, but from what the poster was saying, it sounded like there was.

[han]

To rwylee:

 

I was not annoyed with you, but I thought that you were wrong in this instance. I told you that I would try to explain my question to you after the tournament was over, but unfortunately you immediately started playing in a tournament yourself so I couldn't say anything. I'm glad you started this thread.

[han]

I didn't say that "anyone who asks that question is likely cheating", I said that question is not technically allowable, because it leaves open the possibility of cheating. There is a difference in nuance.

 

Maybe there wasn't any animosity previously, I definitely wasn't there, but from what the poster was saying, it sounded like there was.

Elianna,

 

There was no animosity. Some people think that there is animosity the moment a director is called.

 

I agree that such a question could create a situation where cheating might be possible, Should it therefore be banned? If you were playing against me and I asked "Elianna do you have the club king", wouldn't you trust me and say that you have it? Perhaps I could use it against you, but I wouldn't.

 

Even though I have only played 4 or 5 hands against you, I would have no problem if you asked such a question, and I think that it creates a friendly atmosphere, not a hostile.

[Elianna]

I didn't say that "anyone who asks that question is likely cheating",  I said that question is not technically allowable, because it leaves open the possibility of cheating.  There is a difference in nuance. 

 

Maybe there wasn't any animosity previously, I definitely wasn't there, but from what the poster was saying, it sounded like there was.

Elianna,

 

There was no animosity. Some people think that there is animosity the moment a director is called.

The poster said "There had been ongoing argument between two pairs." This sounds like animosity to me.

 

I agree that such a question could create a situation where cheating might be possible, Should it therefore be banned?

Yes.

 

If you were playing against me and I asked "Elianna do you have the club king", wouldn't you trust me and say that you have it? Perhaps I could use it against you, but I wouldn't.

Since I know you, I would be fine with that. Against a random opp, I would refuse to answer, and if he asked again, would call the director.

 

I'll give you an analogy, if you'll allow: You're giving an exam. Do you allow the students to whisper to each other? Sure, there are perfectly innocent reasons to whisper to a fellow student, but shouldn't it be banned because it could easily be used to cheat?

[Guest Jlall]

guess it goes to show...2 sides to every story.

[rwylee]

To rwylee:

 

I was not annoyed with you, but I thought that you were wrong in this instance. I told you that I would try to explain my question to you after the tournament was over, but unfortunately you immediately started playing in a tournament yourself so I couldn't say anything. I'm glad you started this thread.

Hi Hannie, I am sorry that I subbed a tour, and didn't hear your explanation after the tour. That was my bad, and that's the reason I started this thread to ask for opinions. I am an intermediate player and still learning, as you said, I am a fairly new player. As a TD, I do want to make sure the game is fair to everyone. Since I didn't really know if you should ask question like that, I felt it's better to tell you to claim and show your cards, and I did told you to do so. However, there could be misunderstanding between us. I sincerely apologize for the previous remarks.

[awm]

To give an analogy for this:

 

Suppose we're in the middle of an auction and partner bids 4NT. I now ask partner "what kind of keycard do we play?"

 

In a social game (including tables in the BBO main room or team games with friends) I would have no problem with such a question. A lot of BBO partnerships are pickups and I'm not out to win based on silly misunderstandings by opponents.

 

If someone did this during the Life Master pairs (or any serious event) I would absolutely call the director, and I would expect a procedural penalty to be assessed even if partner declined to answer the question.

 

Whether questions like this are allowed in BBO tournaments depends a lot on how seriously you take the tourney (and how seriously the tourney director takes it). I think if opponents choose to call director in such a situation the director should probably rule against the questioner.

 

While the situation given is asking a question of opponents, the general effect is similar (most of the time it's innocent, but it could be used as a way to coffeehouse and gauge either the opponents' skill level or their card holdings). In a social game, fine by me. In the LM pairs, I expect a procedural penalty. BBO tourney? who knows... but again if the opponents are upset I think their upset is justified.

[shoeless]

I have had the privilege and pleasure of playing on-line alot with a very highly ranked player in the world. One of the things that has been instructive for me is that it appears she only claims at the moment in play when she is sure the opps can see the line - to her credit, she appears to target her assuredness to about an intermediate level - regardless of what is on the opps profile for level. If she gets a refusal of the claim she will play out the hand completely if there aren't many tricks left or if it is early in the play of the hand she will play it out to a much more obvious position and claim again. She never comments on a refused claim - she plays immediately to the next trick. Another thing she does is if an opp rejects a few claims in succession, she stops claiming and plays them out.

[candybar]

Kudos to Hannie for a very nice, respectful, explanation of the situation and his/her intentions -- it would certainly make me comfortable with the purpose behind the original question, and it shows maturity and class not to be upset with the fact that this thread was posted.

 

Kudos to rwylee for trying to find out the right way to handle such a situation -- it shows that, intermediate or not, new TD or not, at least s/he is trying to do a good job of being a TD and cares about learning the things s/he doesn't know.

 

:D :D :D :D :D

[han]

awm,

 

I agree with you that it very much depends on the type of game. The title of this tournament was "JUST FOR FUN". Also, the opponents were not upset.

 

 

I don't agree with your analogy. Asking partner about a convention is never innocent, it will effect your action and the score. Asking the opponents who has the club king will not affect the score at all, it just speeds up the game. Even though the rules might treat these actions similarly, one of them is much more in the spirit of the game than the other.

[helene_t]

Kudos to Rex, Candy, Han, Elianna and others for this pleasant and instructive thread. I wish more of our TD-decision-threads would be like this one :D .

 

Btw, there is an additional difference between online and IRL: IRL, you can't play on after a rejected claim. Therefore, there is a temtation to ask if a claim will be accepted because you don't want the TD to be called (I know this is incorrect, a.o. reasons because declarer can use the information which of the two opps rejected, but it is understandable that it happens.) Online, it can't cost to claim if you're sure it's correct so there can be no reason to ask first. Here, Han didn't know how many tricks he should claim, which explains everything.

[Finch]

The advantage of playing f2f bridge in a country like England, is that in most tournaments I either know the opponents, and whetherthey will understand a claim on a squeeze, or I don't know them which means they probably won't.

 

Playing online, you often have no idea who opponents are or how good they are, or whether they even know what a squeeze is.