2C: weak with both majors (or strong)

[kgr]

Yesterday I played competition with a one time partner.

He wanted to play the 2♣ opening being something semi-GF or weak with both Majors.

This came up a lot during the afternoon (6 or 7 times in 28 deals) and scored really well.

We played it (on request of my partner):

at least 4-4 in the Majors and 3-10 points.

Playing IMP's in 'advanced' field...how far would you go?

4-4 and 3 points looks a bid dangerous to me if vul....any 4-4 in fact. (but we are not in an expert fields, so we are 'protected' by that).

Any different for MP's?

[Double !]

For what it's worth:

 

I might be incorrect, but I believe that the 3-9 pt range ("presumed fit" a la Ekren's) is not permitted in acbl GCC or mid-chart.

Your post is also unclear regarding what kind of semi-GF hands are included in the bid. I can see playing it as 4-4 (10 hcp+) or strong, balanced (you pick the range), but not a GI 1 or 2-suited hand such as acol 2-bid.

[han]

This whole convention (2C as strong or something weak) is not GCC legal so don't worry about the range in that respect.

 

Saying 3-9 points 4-4 or better is fine, it doesn't mean that you have to open all those hands. I would open 4-4 hands very rarely when vulnerable. However, 3 points is fine: QJ10xx J109xx xx x (of course, some might say that this is not 3 points, I would agree). As you are playing with this convention you will find out when it is safe to open 2C and when it is not. Discuss with partner what to expect depending on seat and vulnerability and perhaps change this as you get more experience.

[kgr]

This whole convention (2C as strong or something weak) is not GCC legal so don't worry about the range in that respect.

Is it not? I would think it is allowed as long as the weak part is clearly defined. F.i: weak with 4-5 majors or weak with 4-5 minors would not be allowed because in that case no suit for the weak part is defined yet by the opening.

We play 2C as either:

- weak with both majors (3-10 pts and min 4-4 in Majors)

- 21-23 pts

- 8-9 tricks in a suit

[hrothgar]

This whole convention (2C as strong or something weak) is not GCC legal so don't worry about the range in that respect.

Is it not? I would think it is allowed as long as the weak part is clearly defined. F.i: weak with 4-5 majors or weak with 4-5 minors would not be allowed because in that case no suit for the weak part is defined yet by the opening.

We play 2C as either:

- weak with both majors (3-10 pts and min 4-4 in Majors)

- 21-23 pts

- 8-9 tricks in a suit

Where to begin:

 

1. The GCC ban all conventions not explictly allowed. There is no mention made permitting a two way 2♣ opening. FOr what its worth, these method is not sanctioned at the Midchart level either.

 

2. The ACBL has ruled that assumed fit methods that could be made with 4-4 in the two suits is inherently destructive and bans it at ALL levels of play.

 

In short, you can't use this method in ANY ACBL event.

EVER

 

If you're interested in bidding theory, don't bother trying fitting your methods to ACBL events. Its an exercise in frustration.

[Echognome]

I really like this multi 2♣ bid, especially when playing a strong club or (in my case) diamond system. We play a multi 2♣ and multi 2♦, each with their own hand types. You can handle interference much easier as you have less strong types going through each bid. This means your strong club(diamond) will not be as overloaded.

 

For what it's worth, we have a balanced range possible for each of 1♦, 2♣, and 2♦. Then, we have the following other strong types possible:

 

2♦ has 3 suited hands 20+ hcp

2♣ has 2 suited hands GF

1♦ has the rest

 

This basically leaves single-suited hands and a few other awkward ones like 6-4 hands.

 

I take Richard's point about bidding theory. Luckily, in the EBU, this multi is level 4 compliant (say roughly midchart). The important thing in the EBU is that in the weak option you must either promise the bid suit or deny it. Hence you cannot play a Multi 2♥ as showing a weak 2 in either major. 4-4 shape is considered fine at level 2 (very restricted conventions) if you open in one of the suits you have. So an Ekren 2♥ is level 2 compliant as it promises 4 hearts.

[Chamaco]

For what it's worth, we have a balanced range possible for each of 1♦, 2♣, and 2♦.  Then, we have the following other strong types possible:

 

2♦ has 3 suited hands 20+ hcp

2♣ has 2 suited hands GF

1♦ has the rest

Does it mean that you would open 1D with x-Qxx-Kxx-AQJxxx ?

 

If using 2C as Multi and 2D as strong 3suiter increases the (already bad -IMO) "nebulousness" of 1D, that means that, in order to eliminate strong 4441 (low frequency) from 1C opener, we increase the indetermination (and the vulnerability to interference) of the 1D opener(high frequency).

I suspect this should not be good neither at MP not at IMPS....

 

Moreover, having to chose which handtypes I'd remove from strong club, I would rather pick the 16-18 2 suiters (those are the most vulnerable to preemption).

[Free]

I don't know why we're talking about regulations, especially acbl regulations ;) The question was about the convention, not where it's allowed.

 

I play this 2♣ opening regularly with some partners, and indeed, it scores quite well because of it's frequency. About HCP range, I'd advise you to use common sense. We all know that in case of NV vs V we want to bid a lot, but V vs NV we want to pass sometimes. I'm not familiar with regulations enough to know if you're obligated to open 2♣ with any such hand if your cc states "3-9HCP". If so, you should define the opening better ;)

Most important part for me is that both suits are 'decent', HCP strength is just a little guideline and when V we want something extra. Decent is at least QTxx, Kxxx or any 5+ card. So NV with K854-T7432-9-JT6 I'd open, but V I'd rather need K854-T7432-6-KT9 or better.

[han]

Matt and I had a truly beautiful auction using this great gadget last weekend.

 

2C (weak both majors or strong) - 2NT (surely forcing)

6S (surely shows a strong hand with spades) - 7S (surely partner knows what he is doing)

 

Of course, 7S was a great spot and made. Also, it was not found by the pair at the other table who had not discussed their follow-ups as well as we did.

[Guest Jlall]

Good thing you were using your highly scientific methods hannie ;)

[luis]

Matt and I had a truly beautiful auction using this great gadget last weekend.

 

2C (weak both majors or strong) - 2NT (surely forcing)

6S (surely shows a strong hand with spades) - 7S (surely partner knows what he is doing)

 

Of course, 7S was a great spot and made. Also, it was not found by the pair at the other table who had not discussed their follow-ups as well as we did.

You should nominate your auction for the most annoying auction of the year :-)

The prize will be given to the sucessful auction that got the opponents more furious.

 

I nominate the following:

 

1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 4♣*

pass - pass**- pass ***

 

* = Fit-showing (Heart support and clubs)

** = When the 1♥ overcaller passed 4♣ the 4♣ bidder looked at the sky like saying "why is this happening to me?"

*** = This player considered bidding for some time while his pd looked at him very serious as if saying "don't you see they are going to play something silly?"

 

Result: 4♣ down 1, 4♥ can't be made, the opponents have 4♠

This is now called as the "missunderstanding gambit"

 

:-)

[kgr]

I don't know why we're talking about regulations, especially acbl regulations ;) The question was about the convention, not where it's allowed.

 

I play this 2♣ opening regularly with some partners, and indeed, it scores quite well because of it's frequency. About HCP range, I'd advise you to use common sense. We all know that in case of NV vs V we want to bid a lot, but V vs NV we want to pass sometimes. I'm not familiar with regulations enough to know if you're obligated to open 2♣ with any such hand if your cc states "3-9HCP". If so, you should define the opening better ;)

Most important part for me is that both suits are 'decent', HCP strength is just a little guideline and when V we want something extra. Decent is at least QTxx, Kxxx or any 5+ card. So NV with K854-T7432-9-JT6 I'd open, but V I'd rather need K854-T7432-6-KT9 or better.

Thanks for the answer to the question Free :)

[han]

You should nominate your auction for the most annoying auction of the year :-)

The prize will be given to the sucessful auction that got the opponents more furious.

I think I'd like to nominate another one of my "succesful" auctions, from a club game a couple of years ago. (Do these still count towards the prize?)

 

I opened 2H (weak), LHO doubled, partner bid 2NT which I alerted as "transfer to clubs".

 

Now RHO started to think...

 

And think..

 

He asked "are you sure that 2NT showed clubs?" I said yes.

 

Think...

 

"So 2NT forces you to bid 3C?" Yes, it asks me to bid 3C.

 

Think think think and finally pass.

 

So I quickly passed.. oops!

 

Now LHO asked me several questions, and finally passed. The result was 2NT making exactly. Partner had 7 solid clubs and we had slow stoppers in all other suits. A MP top for us, and the opponents were NOT amused. ;) ;)

[joker_gib]

See my comment on the 2♣ multi opening in this thread :

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=9932&hl=

 

Alain

[helene_t]

Suppose you have a strong hand. The auction starts

2♣-2♠

3♥

and now you must start looking for a fit. Actually, you were lucky partner didn't preempt.

 

For this to work, the strong variants must be well defined. It may work in a strong club or Misery-context where most strong hands can open something else. But I would not play this if all strong hands must open 2♣.

 

Most people over here play 2♣ as either strong or weak with diamonds.

[Echognome]

Does it mean that you would open 1D with x-Qxx-Kxx-AQJxxx ?

 

If using 2C as Multi and 2D as strong 3suiter increases the (already bad -IMO) "nebulousness" of 1D, that means that, in order to eliminate strong 4441 (low frequency) from 1C opener, we increase the indetermination (and the vulnerability to interference) of the 1D opener(high frequency).

I suspect this should not be good neither at MP not at IMPS....

 

Moreover, having to chose which handtypes I'd remove from strong club, I would rather pick the 16-18 2 suiters (those are the most vulnerable to preemption).

Hadn't thought about it too much in a strong club system sorry. I, of course, open your example hand 1♣! See:

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=9909

 

Our Multi 2♦ 3-suiters are 20+ and we find that a playable range. All other 3-suiters are bid as if they were balanced. E.g. 11-13 = 1NT, 14-16 = 1♣ rebid 1NT, and 17-19 = 1♦ rebid 1NT.

[Fluffy]

I had one similar also:

 

2♦*-2NT**

4NT***-5♣****

5♦*****-6NT

 

 

2♦= weak with both majors or 22-23 balanced

2NT = strrong relay

4NT = strong

5♣ = no agreement but you should say this is forcing I wanna see if you have 4♥ to play 7♥.

5♦ = doh, I wanna find the 4-4 ♥ also, but I don't want you to pass 5♥ by any means, so I won't bid them, can you?

6NT = ok we bid enough, I don't want you to pass below slam and we seem to make this with 34-35 HCP.

[kgr]

Most people over here play 2♣ as either strong or weak with diamonds.

This is what we play now:

- 2♣: weak 6c♦ or something strong (8+tricks or 20-21 or 26+)

- 2♦: multi (weak 6cM or 22-23)

- 2NT: 24-25 pts

- 2♥ and 2♠: Muiderberg

When we open 2♣ now and partner relays then we can describe the strong hands and we are also able to show 6 cards. F.i:

2♣-2♦

2♥-2♠

3X

-- 2♦ and 2♠:relay

-- 3X: 6 card X and 20-21 pts

-- (Bidding 2NT iso 3X would show the 26+ hand)

------

If we would change or 2♣ opening from weak ♦ to weak with at least 4-4 M then:

- The weak variant will probably be more frequent?

- Responder would have to bid 2M iso 2♦ when he has a preference for either M; and that would give us less room to better describe or hand if 2♣ was strong.

=> what weak variant would you prefer for 2♣: weak ♦ or weak with at least 4-4 M ? ....or (NV) simply go to 5c♦ iso 6c♦?

(any other remarks/questions about the above are also welcome)

[Free]

For constructive purposes, I'd play with the long ♦s. But when I want to preempt more, I'd go for both Majors. 4-4's are twice as frequent as one 6-card, and it's harder to defend against (and it usually gets opponents out of their Major fits). The strong non-NT hands however will be bid a level higher, so you might want to specify these openings like "8-9 playing tricks with a singlesuiter"